Book Nook Cafe discussion

October Group Read


What: Thread for our October Group Read

Book: Exit the Actress

Author: ~Priya Parmar

Discussion Leader: Marialyce

When: The discussion starts on 1 October 2011

Where: The discussion will take place in this thread

Spoiler Etiquette: Please put the chapter & page number at the top of your post. And put SPOILER if given away an important plot element.

Book Details:
Paperback: 464 pages
Publisher: Touchstone; Original edition (February 1, 2011)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1439171173

Synopsis:
While selling oranges in the Theatre Royal, Covent Garden, sweet and sprightly Ellen "Nell" Gwyn impresses the theater’s proprietors with a wit and sparkle that belie her youth and poverty. She quickly earns a place in the company, narrowly avoiding the life of prostitution to which her sister has already succumbed. As her roles evolve from supporting to starring, the scope of her life broadens as well. Soon Ellen is dressed in the finest fashions, charming the theatrical, literary, and royal luminaries of Restoration England. Ellen grows up on the stage, experiencing first love and heartbreak and eventually becoming the mistress of Charles II. Despite his reputation as a libertine, Ellen wholly captures his heart—and he hers—but even the most powerful love isn’t enough to stave off the gossip and bitter court politics that accompany a royal romance. Telling the story through a collection of vibrant seventeenth-century voices ranging from Ellen’s diary to playbills, letters, gossip columns, and home remedies, Priya Parmar brings to life the story of an endearing and delightful heroine.

About the author:
Priya Parmar, a former dramaturg and freelance editor holds degrees in English Literature and theatre and is currently a doctoral candidate at the University of Edinburgh. She divides her time between Hawaii and London. Visit her website at PriyaParmar.com.

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Exit-Actress-No...

Discussion Questions:

Note: Questions may contain spoilers


TOPICS AND QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION

1. Throughout the novel Ellen comes back to the idea of there being multiple Ellens. The last instance of this occurs in the final chapter when she writes, "stepping forward I gathered up my many Ellens like a fisherman pulling in a net and held them to me for this moment." What do you think she means by her "many Ellens"? How many can you identify, and what are the defining characteristics of each one?

2. In a shocking moment early in the novel, a very young Nell sees her sister Rose being groped in public, which leads to an even more shocking revelation when Rose utters "You think [Mother] did not ask me to be here?" While Nell is determined not to live her sister's life, this certainly seems like the plan that her mother has for her. Why do you think she is able to escape her fate, and Rose, ultimately, is not? Do you think Nell eventually succeeds in rescuing Rose from her life of prostitution, or is it too little too late?

3. Who do you think writes under the nom du plume Ambrose Pink? Do you think one of the main characters doubles as the gossip column writer, or is it someone that we are never introduced to? Is Ambrose Pink a man or a woman?

4. Nell's relationship with Charles Hart was hardly a casual affair. Hart seems deeply in love with Nell, and showers her with gifts and affection. Why do you think Nell is never able to completely fall in love with him? If their child together had survived, do you think their relationship would have suffered as it did?

5. "The game is afoot" says Lord Buckingham, as he makes up his mind to place Nell as the next maitresse en titre. Lord Buckingham has many reasons for choosing Nell, but makes it clear that he expects her to help increase his standing with the King, and perhaps more importantly push his cousin Lady Castlemaine out of favor. As Buckingham notes, "Her bright, whorish light is going out." Do you think Nell could have become one of the King's mistresses without the help of Lord Buckingham? To what extent do you think she understands her relationship with the king to be a "game"?

6. Lord Buckhurst's pursues Nell Gwyn, in a manner that is persistent, but hardly romantic. He first offers to pay her one hundred pounds per year to be his mistress, and then declares in a letter "I have decided you will be mine." Why do you think she still chooses to run off with him and the rest of the 'merry mob?' Should she have left Buckhurst earlier than she did, or was she right in trying to save face by not coming back into public life immediately?

7. Nell's relationship with the Queen is a fascinating combination of admiration and pity. Do you think she betrays the Queen to the same degree the other mistresses do, or does she redeem herself because of her seemingly unique approach to the affair?

8. John Dryden and Aphra Behn both play prominent roles in the novel and help to place it not only in historical context, but also in an artistic one. Allusions are made to many of their plays and poems throughout. Discuss Nell's prowess as an actress and comedienne. What parts of her personality allowed her to excel on stage and why do you think she was so beloved by the patrons of the theatre? What modern actresses would you compare her to?

9. While Lady Castlemaine plays the villainess throughout the novel, there is no denying the fact that she was a very powerful woman. Her fertility was legendary, and the money, titles, and property that she received from the King were enough to last her several lifetimes. Nevertheless she seems sad as the novel progresses, and ultimately loses the fight to remain on as the King's mistress once her looks have faded. In what ways is she similar to Nell Gwyn and how is she different? Do you think in her role in Charles' life she was even more important than the queen at times?

10. King Charles II's letters to his sister Minette, the Madame of France, were brilliant glimpses into the kind of ruler he was. They showed vulnerability, indecision at times, and ultimately a playfulness and levity that seemed to define his reign. Discuss some of their correspondence. Do you think Minette ever offered a piece of bad advice? How much influence do you think she had over her older brother?

11. Johnny Rochester provides comic relief throughout the novel, but also serves as a confidant to both Nell and Charles. Though he is wittier than most and very well liked, his destructive streak eventually forces his exile. Nell remains a loyal friend until the end, however, writing in her final letter to him, "I do not understand the blackness at the bottom of you. All I can do is love you with all the light I possess." What do you think of Johnny Rochester? Why do you think his darker moments are so painful for the King and Nell to endure? And finally, why do you think he and Nell get along so well?

12. It is very important to Nell that she own her own property and pay for it herself, resulting in her purchase of Bagnigge House. Later, however, she also accept a house at Newman's Row from the King. Why do you think she insisted on purchasing her own property but then eventually accepted the Newman's Row residence? Does this undermine her independent spirit in any way or would she simply have been foolish to continue to shun the benefits of being the King's maitresse en titre?

http://books.simonandschuster.com/Exi...

The Discussion Leader for this Group Read will be Marialyce.

I am putting up the thread since Marialyce and a few others have started the book.

The discussion formally begins October 1, 2011.

However, you can begin to post whenever you wish.
Also note Group Read threads are never closed or deleted.

I have got the book last week and my hands are itching to get a hold of it and start reading... Any one started already?

I will start it today Tugce Nida. I, too, am looking forward to it. I am going to break it up into 100 page reads. As soon as I look again at the book, I will let you know how many chapters that will be. So happy you are anxious to read this with us!

Fot those of you (like me) who want to start reading, I intend to read and discuss the book from the Prologue to Chapter 3. In the paperback that would bring us up to page 71. If you have read further, please make sure you use spoilers to indicate that part of what you wrote. Thanks and I am looking forward to reading with everyone!

I am starting it today Marialyce, so hopefully I will be able to talk at least some parts of it...

Tugce Nida wrote: "I am starting it today Marialyce, so hopefully I will be able to talk at least some parts of it..."

Super! :)

I read somewhere that brazen women are never forgotten by history. Do you think this is so?


READING. TO PAGE 72
Our story begins with the introduction of the characters and we meet our main protagonist Nell. She lives with her sister Rose, mother, and grandfather who is visiting. At the start it is revealed to Nell that her mother is a madam and her sister is one of the hired help. I was pretty shocked by any mother who would allow and encourage her daughter into the arena of prostitution.

I guess I am wondering if that idea is ever ok. I know it has gone on for centuries and still
does today, but what are the parameters where this becomes ok, or is it always just plain wrong?

SOME BACKGROUND ON NELL


Nell Gwynne, who originally sold oranges in the precincts of the Drury Lane Theatre, became an actress at the age of only fifteen, through the influence of her first lover, the actor, Charles Hart, and also of Robert Duncan, a guards officer who had an interest in the theatre's management. Her first recorded appearance on the stage was in 1665, as Montezuma's daughter, Cydaria, in Dryden's Indian Emperor, a serious part to which she was not well. In the following year, however, she played Lady Wealthy in James Howard's comedy The English Monsieur. The diarist, Samuel Pepys, was apparently delighted by the performance from "pretty, witty Nell", but went further upon seeing her as Florimel in Dryden's Secret Love, or the Maiden Queen, : "so great a performance of a comical part was never, I believe, in the world before.....so done by Nell her merry part as cannot be better done in nature" (25th March 1667). Nell's success brought her other leading roles: Bellario, in Beaumont and Fletcher's Philaster; Flora, in Rhodes's Flora's Vagaries; Samira, in Sir Robert Howard's Surprisal. Nell Gwynne excelled in the delivery of the risqué, but fashionable, prologues and epilogues of the time, but her success as an actress was largely due to John Dryden, who wrote characters especially for her, having made a study of her airy and irresponsible personality. She remained a member of the Drury Lane company until 1669, playing continuously except for a short sabbatical in Epsom.

Hi-de-ho, so I started the book this morning on my commute and I'm mostly liking it so far. My only complaint is that I dislike the royal letters back and forth. I'm not surprised that I dislike this portion of it, because I always tend to; I don't like it when authors speak for historical figures unless they do it amazingly well and believably, and I'm not getting that from this book. At least not yet. The book is still young. ;)

I don't mind the "pretend" letters but I am hating the script that is being used at the announcement of some of the parts. I know it is suppose to resemble a hand written script but I am having difficulty reading it.

What about Teddy? Do you think he was gay? He did take on and love the part of being a woman. He is a cross dresser the intro says.

Kynaston was good looking and made a convincing woman: Samuel Pepys called him "the loveliest lady that ever I saw in my life" after seeing him in a production of John Fletcher's The Loyal Subject at the Cockpit-in-Court, "only her [sic] voice not very good." He also played the title role in Ben Jonson's Epicoene. Pepys had dinner with Kynaston after this production.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edw...
for what Teddy looked like.

Described by Samuel Pepys as "the prettiest woman in the whole house" and "the handsomest man," the rumor of the time had him playing female roles off stage as well. When already in his thirties, lampoons circulated that made him out to be the lover of George Villiers, 2nd Duke of Buckingham.
Kynaston went on to make a successful career in male roles and was noted for his portrayal of Shakespeare's Henry IV. He retired in 1699.

I thought I would like this book but I am not enjoying the style of the book. Have put it down for a bit with intention to get back to it. Haven't given up on it.

Sorry Bobbie...I did hear such good things about it...:(

Ooo Marialyce, the script I hate is the bit at the top of each entry. I have a hard time reading the ( ) stuff.

I might go a step further with Teddy and say that he might not only be gay, but perhaps if he had the opportunities of today, he'd become transgendered? Or at least a drag queen. It's interesting how all the fine ladies want to go with him dressed up like that, while drag is looked upon so differently today.

I'm still loving Ellen's story, though. :)

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/ima...

An image of Nell

And another

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...


And one more

http://www.solihullu3a.com/resources/Nel...

Don't despair. The book won with 7/12 votes. So there should still be a nice number of people reading the book. And that doesn't count those that didn't vote for the book but plan on reading it.

Thanks, Alias! I really like the book, so reading it is just a pleasure for me.

As far as the girls selling oranges btw, most of them were selling a lot more than oranges although I know in the book that Nell's employer specifically stated that there would be none of that.

So it was not like selling peanuts and hot dogs and beer at the ballgames!

Oh, Marialyce -- I didn't want you to feel bad about this. Just saying -- I will probably go back to reading it as I am interested in the story but not happy with the way it is set up.

Thanks, Bobbie... I guess I just want everyone to enjoy our reading time together. :)

I enjoy being here and discussing books with you all. I don't have to absolutely adore every book we read. How boring that would be. LOL

Marialyce wrote: "I don't mind the "pretend" letters but I am hating the script that is being used at the announcement of some of the parts. I know it is suppose to resemble a hand written script but I am having dif..."
--------------------

I don't mind the letters, but I agree they are hard to read. :(

The overall print in the book is a bit small.

Marialyce wrote: "SOME BACKGROUND ON NELL


Nell Gwynne, who originally sold oranges in the precincts of the Drury Lane Theatre, became an actress at the age of only fifteen, through the influence of her first lover..."
----------------

I will admit that Philippa Gregory type stories are not my thing. So I am a bit confused. Is the character of Nell based on a real person ?

Yes, Alias, Nell was a real person...all of the characters in the book were real.

Marialyce wrote: "I read somewhere that brazen women are never forgotten by history. Do you think this is so?

I think generally speaking history ignores most women. Maybe Eleanor Roosevelt is an exception with a few others.

The book
Pioneer Women~Joanna L. Stratton
brings two quotes to mind.

History is lived in the main by the unknown and forgotten
The mass of humanity has been consigned forever to the shadows.
History chronicles the large and glorious deeds of the standard bearers,
but tells little of the men or whose shoulders they are borne to victory.

Surely not a star in Heaven will be too bright for the crowns of those brave women.

Marialyce wrote: "http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/ima...

An image of Nell

And another

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...


And one more

http://www.solihullu3a.com/resources/Nel..."

-----------------

Post # 16
For some reason the 3 links in this post aren't working for me. :(

Alias, they were working for me when I added them, but now I see they are not. Sorry I will try again later to repost them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...

I hope these work....Pictures of Nell

That worked ! Thanks.

She looks very tall in that picture.

I had to laugh when Charles received the note from mama about how his wife should behave after sex to produce an heir....no archery and keeping her legs up in the air for two hours...

I read that Nell was considered to be the most famous Restoration actress of all time possessing a very comedic side.

7. Nell's relationship with the Queen is a fascinating combination of admiration and pity. Do you think she betrays the Queen to the same degree the other mistresses do, or does she redeem herself because of her seemingly unique approach to the affair?

Nell's actions and attitude toward the Queen are probably one of the things that makes me like her the best. Unlike many of the so-called "ladies" of the court, Nell knows her place and place of the Queen are very different, and she doesn't try to combine them into one role that she can take for herself. In the book, it's related that she doesn't betray the Queen as much as the other mistresses because she loves the King as a man, not because he's the King, and she has no other agenda with him. She doesn't want anything more from him than himself, and the Queen, who also loves him, can appreciate that, as well as the fact that Nell, unlike a few of the other mistresses, isn't trying to displace her. I think the fact that the Queen was able to come to her once she was pregnant and ask if rumors were true spoke to their relationship more than anything else. In the novel at least, there seemed to be mutual respect there.

12. It is very important to Nell that she own her own property and pay for it herself, resulting in her purchase of Bagnigge House. Later, however, she also accept a house at Newman's Row from the King. Why do you think she insisted on purchasing her own property but then eventually accepted the Newman's Row residence? Does this undermine her independent spirit in any way or would she simply have been foolish to continue to shun the benefits of being the King's maitresse en titre?

For years, Nell has been reliant upon one man or another, mostly because that was the way things were in this day and age. Few women were able to be totally reliant upon themselves for money, and Nell's few scrapes toward the bottom convinced her that the goodwill of men often dried up and that she should be reliant upon no one but herself. In buying the Bagnigge House, she had something that was truly her own, and something that no one could take from her if she was suddenly in disfavor. Moving to a house offered by the King closer to the city did not diminish her freedom because she chose to move, and she still had the freedom to chose to move back to her own house whenever she wanted.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/98...

for a further reading of Nell

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/98...

for further reading about Nell

Maree ♫ Light's Shadow ♪ wrote: "7. Nell's relationship with the Queen is a fascinating combination of admiration and pity. Do you think she betrays the Queen to the same degree the other mistresses do, or does she redeem herself ..."

--------------

I really appreciate you tackling the Discussion Questions, Maree.

We had 7 people vote for this book, I hope they will be joining the discussion soon.

CHAPTER 3

In this section, Nell learns how to become an entertainer from her voice lessons to her dancing master, she is being primed for her future on the stage. We also see the queen become seriously ill and have her head shaved and pigeons attached to her toes so her spirit would not fly away. I never heard of this....did any one else? The medicines they gave her would have made me such as well but she does recover.

At any rate, Nell's sister is in jail until Nell has a meeting with the king and he dismisses
the trumped up charges against the sister. So we now see how Nell begins her
relationship with the king. Were you surprised that Rose was in trouble?

Nell has taken on Hart as a lover and it seemed something that she expected she would do. Their first time together was so anti climatic, certainly not very romantic, just like another happening. Now Nell is a kept woman in a way. Teddy becomes ill and eventually dies with the love of his life Anne at his side.

At this point, at least for me, the novel seems shallow. Anyone have a reaction so far?

Comments on Chapter 3

Marialyce---We also see the queen become seriously ill and have her head shaved and pigeons attached to her toes so her spirit would not fly away. I never heard of this....did any one else?
-------------

I was just going to post about that ! I never heard of that.

I have a fear of pidgins, so this treatment would have killed me or sent me to an insane asylum for sure.
---------------
Marialyce:Were you surprised that Rose was in trouble?

No. The book reads a bit like a morality play. So I would expect something to befall Rose.
----------------
Marialyce: At this point, at least for me, the novel seems shallow. Anyone have a reaction so far?
-----------------
To be honest, this is not my favorite genre. So I wouldn't expect for me to be loving it. I can't really keep track of all the names. I'm just basically following Nell and Rose and letting the others slide by. However, I think people who like to read Philippa Gregory type novels would find this an enjoyable read.

I thought, at least the part I've read so far, was trying to show the superficial/shallow life of the Royals against the masses. Some who have had to sell their bodies to get the basics of food and shelter.

Alias Reader wrote: "Maree ♫ Light's Shadow ♪ wrote: "7. Nell's relationship with the Queen is a fascinating combination of admiration and pity. Do you think she betrays the Queen to the same degree the other mistress..."

Marialyce -- you will be happy to know that I have gotten back into this book. I am enjoying the story but wow I still will not give points for the way it is laid out and I can only read it in certain areas of my house. It needs to be truly well lit because the print is so small. It is a testament to my eye exam that I can actually read the small print.

I'll get back to the real discussion points shortly.

I love Philippa Gregory books so the genre isn't a problem. Which is why I voted for it and will try to hold up my end.

Maree ♫ Light's Shadow ♪ wrote: "Hi-de-ho, so I started the book this morning on my commute
------------

Maree, I smiled and thought of your post when I read on page 56, "-just in case my size should continue to improve. Heigh-ho."

Since I have little interest in the Royal Family, when I read in the novel about the king being "murdered" I decided to head to Wiki.

Charles II (29 May 1630 OS – 6 February 1685 OS) was monarch of the three kingdoms of England, Scotland, and Ireland.

Charles II's father, King Charles I, was executed at Whitehall on 30 January 1649, at the climax of the English Civil War.

The Wiki article is a bit dense, but it may help if you are unfamiliar with this history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_...

Alias Reader wrote: "Maree, I smiled and thought of your post when I read on page 56, "-just in case my size should continue to improve. Heigh-ho."

And it was completely unintentional, Alias! I hadn't gotten that far at that point. :)

Maree ♫ Light's Shadow ♪ wrote: And it was completely unintentional, Alias! I hadn't gotten that far at that point. :)

----------------

That is too funny ! I thought you were alluding to the book.

Does anyone recall the people who voted for this book?
I would like to send out a reminder.

This is totally my fault for not writing the names down. It's just that we never had the majority of people who voted for a book not show up for the discussion.

Section 5

Here is some info on the Great plague of 1665

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/...

Plague had been around in England for centuries but in 1665 the so-called Great Plague hit the country - though it was Stuart London that took the worst of the plague. The plague was only finally brought under control in 1666 when the Great Fire of London burned down the areas most affected by plague – the city slums inhabited by the poor. Stuart England was never free from the plague but 1665 saw the worst.

1665 had experienced a very hot summer. London’s population had continued to grow and many lived in squalor and poverty. The only way people had to get rid of rubbish was to throw it out into the streets. This would include normal household waste as well as human waste. As a result, London was filthy. But this was a perfect breeding place for rats. A popular belief during the plague was that the disease was caused by dogs and cats. This was not so. The plague was caused by disease-carrying fleas carried on the bodies of rats. A pair of rats in the perfect environment could breed many off-spring. The filth found in the streets of London provided the perfect environment for rats.

Not surprisingly, the first victims of the plague were found in the poorer districts of the city. The cramped living conditions these people lived in, and the fact that so many actually lived in the slum areas of London, meant that many people could not avoid contact with either the rats or someone who had the disease.

What were the symptoms of the plague?

This is best summed up in a popular nursery rhyme of the time:

"Ring-a-ring of roses,
A pocketful of posies,
Attischo, Attischo,
We all fall down."


The first comment in the poem was a reference to red circular blotches that were found on the skin. These could also develop into large pus filled sacs found primarily under the armpits and in the groin. These buboes were very painful to the sufferer.

The second line refers to the belief that the plague was spread by a cloud of poisonous gas that was colourless (known as a miasma). This miasma could only be stopped, so it was believed, if you carried flowers with you as the smell of the flowers would overpower the germs carried by the miasma. There was also another ‘benefit’ to carrying sweet smelling flowers. A victim’s breath started to go off as the disease got worse. The flowers perfume would have covered up this unpleasantness.

The final symptom was a sneezing fit that was promptly followed by death. Some of the victims did not get as far as this stage presumably as their lives were so poor that their bodies were even less able to cope with the disease. For some, a swift death was merciful.

Once the disease took a hold it spread with frightening speed. Those who could, the wealthy, left London for the comparative safety of the countryside. No such option existed for those who lived in the slums. In fact, militiamen were paid by the city’s council to guard the parish boundaries of the area they lived in and to let no one out unless they had a certificate to leave from their local parish leader. Very few of these certificates were issued.

The poor were very badly hit by the plague. The authorities in London decided on drastic action to ensure that the plague did not spread.

Any family that had one member infected by the plague was locked in their home for forty days and nights. A red cross was painted on the door to warn others of the plight of those in the house. No one was allowed in except ‘nurses’.

The ‘nurses’ were local women with no training whatsoever but they got paid to visit the homes of plague victims to see how they were getting on and to take food to them if the victims could afford to pay for it. Samuel Pepys, a diarist who lived in London at this time, condemned the work done by these ‘nurses’. He claimed that they used the opportunities presented to them to steal from the homes they visited. One of his close friends at this time was Nathaniel Hodges – a qualified doctor who helped plague victims. It is possible that Pepys got such information from him.

Searchers were people who were paid to hunt out dead bodies or possible plague victims who had yet to be found by the authorities. The shouted phrase "bring out your dead" was heard with great frequency in September 1665. The collected bodies were then put on a cart and taken to a mass burial pit.

Those who assessed whether someone had the plague or not, were called plague doctors. None of these were qualified physicians as most real doctors had fled the city for their own safety. However, their decision was final and would result in your home being chained shut from the outside and the red cross being painted on your door.

Londoners were also paid to kill dogs and cats as it was assumed that these spread the disease.

Cures for the plague were pointless but sought after if someone had the money to pay for them. Nathaniel Hodges believed that sweating out the disease was a sound approach and he encouraged those victims he came across to burn anything they could to create heat and smoke. In view of the fact that Londoners lived in wooden houses then, this was not particularly sound advice even from a proper doctor. However, many were desperate to try anything.

The plague was at its worst in September 1665 when the heat of the summer was at its peak. Each parish in London had to produce a week-by-week Bill of Mortality for the authorities. For every parish in London, the biggest weekly killer was plague – no other disease came anywhere near it.

The approaching winter halted the spread of the disease as the weather took its toll on the rats and fleas. However, though the worst had passed by the end of 1665, the end of the plague as a major killer only occurred with the Great Fire of London – the city’s second tragedy in two years. The fire devastated the filthy city areas where rats had prospered. The rebuilt London was more spacious and open. Never again was the city going to be affected so badly by this disease.
*******************************

I had no idea that "ring around the rosy" was such an old tune. I also had no idea it was connected to the plague !

I was wondering what the life expectancy was in 1665 and came upon this link for how things were in the 17th century. It covers everything from what the clothes they wore, the food they ate, and what their homes were like. Interesting.

http://www.localhistories.org/stuart....

EVERYDAY LIFE IN THE STUART ERA (17TH CENTURY)

By Tim Lambert

17TH CENTURY ENGLAND

During the 17th century the population of England and Wales grew steadily. It was about 4 million in 1600 and it grew to about 5 1/2 million by 1700.

17th CENTURY MEDICINE

During the 17th century operations were performed by barber-surgeons. Their knowledge of anatomy improved. Medicine also improved. In 1628 William Harvey published his discovery of how blood circulates around the body. Doctors also discovered how to treat malaria with bark from the cinchona tree.

However medicine was still handicapped by wrong ideas about the human body. Most doctors still thought that there were four fluids or 'humours' in the body, blood, phlegm, yellow bile and black bile. Illness resulted when you had too much of one humour. Nevertheless during the 17th century a more scientific approach to medicine emerged and some doctors began to question traditional ideas.

The Chinese invented the toothbrush. (It was first mentioned in 1498). Toothbrushes arrived in Europe in the 17th century. In the late 17th century they became popular with the wealthy in England.

The average life span in the 17th century was shorter than today. Average life expectancy at birth was only 35. That does not mean that people dropped dead when they reached that age! Instead many of the people born died while they were still children. Out of all people born between one third and one half died before the age of about 16. However if you could survive to your mid-teens you would probably live to your 50s or early 60s. Even in Stuart times some people did live to their 70s or 80s.

Alias Reader wrote: "Comments on Chapter 3

Marialyce---We also see the queen become seriously ill and have her head shaved and pigeons attached to her toes so her spirit would not fly away. I never heard of this....di..."
---------------

As I read on I suspect the cure was often worse then the disease !

P 89

The account of the queen's treatment in the Gazette this morning: Blood letting, anemone, leeches, crushed fox lung lung-wort, spider web, swallow nest, penny-royal cotton weed, bedstraw, foxglove, the ground skull of a hanged man ?

P 153
Cure for plague

Tom passed around packets of tobacco-everyone is chewing tobacco against the pestilence-Dreadful taste- I must buy some extra tooth tonic.

P 118
advice for pregnant women--

"as you are now in a delicate condition you must forgo the greed salad vegetables you are so food of. A woman in your condition cannot risk such impure foods- meat and plenty of red wine will ensure a healthy male child. Do not loosen your stays like some sort of baker's wife.

I like the "lady's Household Companion" advice cutouts that the author has included. It helps give a feel for the 17th century.

I wonder if the author made these up or she found these in her research.


P 166
Scented linen bags. Perfume for people who did not bath often.

P150 A sort of concoction made of wine and assorted other things that was left to purify the air I guess.

One thing is clear...these were NOT the good old days.

Thanks Alias for posting all that information.

Chapter 4

It is striking me oddly how the grandfather, who is so loved by Ellen, has accepted his granddaughters' situations. Did anyone else think this was strange?

Ellen obviously being pregnant and then losing the baby has undergone an emotional experience. Did anyone think her feelings were just sort of glossed over? Perhaps it is the diary type format, but should there not have been more to her feelings?

Marialyce wrote: "Thanks Alias for posting all that information.

Chapter 4

It is striking me oddly how the grandfather, who is so loved by Ellen, has accepted his granddaughters' situations. Did anyone else think ..."

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I think he accepted Rose being a prostitute because they needed the money. There was no male to provide and women didn't have many options. But I did think it odd that he barely raised an eyebrow. And the mother's drunken behavior and also prostituting her daughter also didn't cause any conversation.

As for Ellen, really is her behavior really that much different from Rose? She also comes from a poor background and has little education. So I guess there are not much choices. And her mother and sister are her examples.

Does the whole I suddenly became a famous actress and also happened to catch the eye of the king ring true... not one bit.

Also this is the last stop for the grandfather. The other relative couldn't keep him. If he causes trouble he will be out in the street.

Marialyce wrote: "Ellen obviously being pregnant and then losing the baby has undergone an emotional experience. Did anyone think her feelings were just sort of glossed over? Perhaps it is the diary type format, but should there not have been more to her feelings?
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A lot is glossed over. How about the one sentence where she spends the night with the king for the first time?

One would think a diary would be the one place where she would expand on the loss of the baby and also her first time with the king.

Very true Alias. I think that the dairy entry idea does not work so well here. I am also reading The Woman in White where diary entries are used ever so well. It is disappointing to me, to read such little information.