Reading the Chunksters discussion

This is a little section that really only builds upon ealier themes, so I couldn't find much in the way of new topics to discuss. However, seen as this section pretty much marks a half-way point, it might be a good time to do a recap and ask what people have made of it so far and what expectations they have for how the plot and characters might develop in the second half.

In short I liked the beginning wayyyyyy better than what's going on now. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the Arthurian legend turned on its head. It could also be that I liked the story of Igraine and the idea of carving out a place for yourself while still living your destiny. I'm not sure I like ('like' for lack of a better word) Morgaine or Gwen...I can't put my finger on it, I just know that the book made me happier in the beginning. :D

I'd say i'm with Stephanie on this. While there were components of the earlier story I found occasionally frustrating, I liked learning about the characters and getting to know them.

I am very hard pressed to like Gwen, and when it comes down to it Lancelet as well. Morgaine is interesting and a character I'm enjoying getting to know, except that I do not always buy how much she's keeping quiet at times. I have a very hard time seeing her actually getting along with Gwen in a genuine way, so I have a hard time believing the plot as relates to that friendship.

On top of that, i don't think Morgaine's grown into someone who is more demure or who can hold things in for the greater purpose of letting people figure things out for themselves. In general she holds things in over this inner tortured self. I mean, everyone seems pretty tortured at this point, and maybe that's my issue. People seem to either be too focused on themselves, or more focused on everyone else than really seems likely if they are in as much pain as they seem to be.

In the Igraine/Uther part of the story, there was pain and heartache, but there was also a strong resilience and acceptance of the way things are that just does not exist in the generation of characters we are dealing with now. Every time those character (Vivaine, Igraine, Merlin, etc) come up in part 2 I can only sit there and think "how do they have it so much more together?"

I'm a little surprised by the strength of the anti-Gwen feelings here. She is a soppy, judgemental and slightly stupid woman and I've felt myself get infuriated at her dogmatism and weakness, but at the same time I sympathise that she has been raised to be inferior and predjudiced and my heart can't help but go out to such a conflicted character denied love from father, husband (I'd describe her relationship with Arthur as more respectful than affectionate) and perhaps most painfully from potential children.

But Morgaine I am in no doubts about. I love Morgaine. She isn't a hero or a villain, but a neutral force simply living for herself and translating the story to the reader. I'm finding her to be the strongest and most independent character in the whole book - she doesn't even need the Goddess like Viviane does.

Amanda wrote: "I'm a little surprised by the strength of the anti-Gwen feelings here. She is a soppy, judgemental and slightly stupid woman and I've felt myself get infuriated at her dogmatism and weakness, but ..."

I really do not get the impression at all that Gwen is denied the love of Arthur. It seems to me he is entirely devoted to her and wants nothing but to make her happy. I really do not see what more Arthur could do for her. He has an endless amount of patentee for her. I do not think he would be nearly as tolerant of her or as contented to remaining with her and stay loyal with her inability to get pregnant if his feelings were only out of respect. He showers her in adoration

There are several different types of love...and while Arthur does love Gwen and respect all. of. her. friggin'. wishes. (that really does get tiring) He is not in love with her and he does not feel passion for her. He will, however, be a good husband to her, even if she doesn't produce a male heir. I do feel all the feelings you feel about Gwen, Amanda. I would also add that she has all the 'proper' feelings that women of this time possess. It is her fault that she hasn't produced an heir, it is her fault Arthur doesn't feel passion for her and when she begins to understand that fact and feels passion for someone else, she feels guilty and doesn't allow herself to be happy.

In Morgaine, Bradley has created a strong character, but in having to follow her 'destiny' she makes me angry at times. I did not like what Igraine had become (you know after Uther's death she seemed to be quite devoted to protecting his memory against living her life as she 'wanted' to and forsaking all that she knew of the Goddess), and am afraid that Morgaine may be going down the same path. I like seeing how this story is going to play out (I just got a bit bored there...it felt like a different story there for a long bit), and in that respect I like getting to know a character I always thought of as being a villain (kind of like getting to know Elphaba in Wicked) and understanding that villainy really is an interpretation of only the facts that are put before you and that even if you think that they are all the facts they probably aren't. This book has already changed the way I look at the Arthurian legend, the Sword in the Stone, The Lady of the Lake and all that...even if I can tell I still (like Wizard of Oz vs. Wicked) like the original story better.

Stephanie wrote: "This book has already changed the way I look at the Arthurian legend..."

Oh absolutely. My previous understanding of the Arthurian legends have been challenged by Bradley and will never be quite the same again. It is not that Bradley has written an interpretation any more correct or incorrect than any other, but it is healthy to be reminded that there is more than one way to tell any story and it might not look the same from all angles - the well used phrase 'history is written by the winners' comes to mind. As a big fan of historical revisionism and the revising of classical stories, I'm throughly enjoying Mists.

Yes, yes, and more yeses!!! :D

Stephanie wrote: "There are several different types of love...and while Arthur does love Gwen and respect all. of. her. friggin'. wishes. (that really does get tiring) He is not in love with her and he does not feel..."

Personally I think it is the other way around. Gwen was already lusting for Lancelot before she even met Arthur, and so she is the one whom comes into the marriage without passion for her husband and she is the one whom loves Arthur more as simply respecting him as being a good man whom treats her well. But she is the one who lacks the passion in the marriage.

But the moment in which Arthur saw her, and realized how young and beautiful she was, of which he was not expecting, he fell in love with her. I see nothing that indicates that his feelings of love for her are not genuine. In fact it seems pretty clear to me that he does truly love her. And Gwen does not turn to Lancelet simply because she does not feel loved by her husband, but because she had been pining for him all along. But I do not get the impression that Gwen ever actually feels unloved by Arthur.

oh, i don't think she loves him either, not with passion anyway--she loves him, she is not in love with him; he loves her, he is not in love with her. she does respect him. he does respect her. it goes both ways. they just aren't in love with each other.

he fell in lust with her, being unexpectedly captured by someones' youth and beauty (to paraphrase) isn't really true passion that nurtures falling in love. he does truly love her. he does not have a passion for her. he is not in love with her. there are different kinds of love.

yes, gwen does feel all those feelings (love, lust, passion, respect) and more for lancelot. i might even say that arthur feels all those feelings and more for morgaine, or at one time did (i'll have to think if i truly mean that, but it did just come to mind just now). what's important is that he doesn't feel all those feelings for gwen and neither does gwen.

gwen doesn't feel unloved by arthur, however they are not in love with each other. hence, we have a marriage that doesn't really work.

I just personally do not get that impression that Arthur is not in love with Gwen. I beleive that he is.

Because of what happened between him and Mograine and becasue she was his first, he does have a bond with her that he will never have with Gwen, but there is nothing which convinces me that he is not in love with Gwen.

yeah, i could see how the story could be interpreted both ways, that's what makes it so good! :)

It's facinating that we could end up with such opposed ideas on Arthur and Gwen's relationship from reading the same material! I have to agree with Stephanie though - it isn't that Arthur doesn't love Gwen, he just isn't IN love with her, and visa versa. They have a mutual understanding, respect and even sibling-like affection, but that does not make for an ideal marriage.