Discovering Russian Literature discussion

PART III
CHAPTER I. THE FETE--FIRST PART
CHAPTER II. THE END OF THE FETE
CHAPTER III. A ROMANCE ENDED
CHAPTER IV. THE LAST RESOLUTION
CHAPTER V. A WANDERER
CHAPTER VI. A BUSY NIGHT
CHAPTER VII. STEPAN TROFIMOVITCH'S LAST WANDERING
CHAPTER VIII. CONCLUSION

I read Demons last winter. This section of the book contains one of the most haunting scenes in all of literature. I hope everyone finishes the book and comments . . .

I just finished reading this book, and I have to say first of all I was completely shocked by the murder of Maria and her brother. I did not see that coming at all.

I must say that while I enjoyed reading this book, and I thought the ending in particular was quite gripping one of the difficulties I had was the fact that I did not really find any of the characters to be relatable. None of the characters in the book really stuck out to me that much, I cannot cliam any real favorites. They were all quite fascinating, and some certainly more likable than others but usually with Dostoevsky one of the things that I love so much about his writing is that in his books there is at least one character that really speaks to me and I feel a connection with.

I found Peter to be completely dissociable and it was frustrating that everyone would listen to him and go along with what he wanted even when they disagreed with him or even despised him. And in the end I ended up finding Shatov to be the most sympathetic.

One thing that I could not help but wondering about was Nikolai's suicide, though he was to say the least unbalanced, he declared in his letter to Dasha that taking his own life was one thing which he could never bring himself to do, so I was left wondering in the end, did he truly take his own life or was it Peter's doing for we know how he had contrived the suicide of Kirillov.

Silver, I think he really did kill himself. I think of Krillov's stance on life and suicide to explain this: he talks of 'fearsome freedom', and 'self will'. The 'fullest point of self will is for me to kill myself" says Krillov. This idea was taken up be Camus and other existentialists later on. Camus said the greatest philosophical struggle man has is whether to kill himself or not, in the face of this awesome freedom. The freedom appears to man when he no longer believes in god or in god's will; man is god, and man has self will. Pytor would choose to kill others to make use of his free/self will. And Pytor blames all others for everything too; he never blames himself. Nikolai blames himself however for everything, NOT others. And Nikolai also bemoans the fact that he has no convictions, no connections to anything. He seems to just go through life unconnected, sharing nothing with anyone. This is partly nihilistic. In this sense, he is like Camus' Mersault (The Stranger). He does not feel for others. He does not appear to CHOOSE anything, things just happen. But, when he finally recognizes this about himself, when he sees this void in himself, he does kill himself.

I doubt my comment here is clear! But, I do believe that the question of suicide is an important one in this novel, and I believe that in here we find the rumblings which later became Existentialism as we know it. Nihilism being life devoid of god and meaning, existentialism being the life we choose to make to avoid suicide that is rooted in the realization of nihilism.

This idea was taken up be Camus and other existentialists later on...

And by Shakespeare/Hamlet before that.

'Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?...'

http://www.utoronto.ca/tsq/DS/05/063....

Christi wrote: "Silver, I think he really did kill himself. I think of Krillov's stance on life and suicide to explain this: he talks of 'fearsome freedom', and 'self will'. The 'fullest point of self will is for ..."

I think you bring up an interesting point in the differences between Nikolia and Peter in the ideas of Nickoli blaming himself vs Peter blaming everyone else. It is true that Peter was much more proactive than Nickoli was, and Nickoli did just seem to go along with what was happening around him.

I think this also explains my feelings towards each of them. While Nickoli had done some heinous things and was a despicable person, I found Peter for more loathsome as the story progressed.

I think part of it may be for the very reason that Peter never once felt any remorse for his actions and never felt any responsibility for what he did, and further more he felt justified in his actions. Nikoli on the other hand could not help himself (not to say he was not responsible for his own actions) but he did live in misery for what and who he was.

I am inclined to think that he probably did take his own life, but I could not help entertaining the possibility of that more sinister suggestion that it was Peter's doing.

I had the same feelings as you, Silver, in regards to Nikolai and Pytor. Maybe Dostoyevsky was less ambiguous in his portrayal of Pytor's motivations; we knew he was no good.
As I was just thinking about this, it dawned on me that Nikolai made some comments in the at Tikhons chapter, that are relevant to these ideas of the actions of his character. He said about the 'girl incident', that he could have controlled his actions, but he chose not to. And remember her shaking her fist at him, and how it bothered him, more than what he did bothered him? Well, it was her condemnation of his actions that haunted him (maybe). Made him realize that even if he did not believe god may play a part in his choices, that all of his actions, have consequences that effect other people. And he couldn't live with that weight, with that power. And yet, Pytor used that power to do terrible things, on purpose. Oh, I am just repeating myself now!

I do know what you mean, Silver, when you say you question Pytor's sinister workings in even Nikolai's death. I do think, even though Pytor seemed to value Nikolai more than he valued any other person, that he was capable of killing Nikolai. We, the readers, would not put that past him.

Nikolai's suicide, though he was to say the least unbalanced, he declared in his letter to Dasha that taking his own life was one thing which he could never bring himself to do, so I was left wondering in the end, did he truly take his own life or was it Peter's doing for we know how he had contrived the suicide of Kirillov.

just finished last night. in my translation Stavrogin says in the letter to Dasha that he 'could never shoot himself'. I interpreted this to be distinct from hanging himself.

I finished the book yesterday, and I think the chapter "At Tikhon's" (which was forbidden by the government and is placed after the whole novel in my edition) gives real insight into Stavrogin's suicide. So I believe Verkhovensky had nothing to do with it and Stavrogin's previous crimes in addition to the new ones in Skvoreshniki (although not direct) caught up with him and he couldn't handle it any more.