Reading the Chunksters discussion

So, I literally just finished this selection...and, my head is still reeling!

Some things to think about in this section, at least some things that I've been thinking about:
1] Morgause compares her own sons to dogs and Gwydion (Mordred) to a cat...what are the advantages and disadvantages of being each animal? How do you see this playing out in the rest of the novel?

2] Do you believe that Viviane 'planned this' that both she and Morgause (who really is a vicious trollop :D) would know about Arthur and Morgaine? What does that say about Viviane and her trust in the Goddess (something I've questioned throughout this novel)?

3] Lancelet seems a little conflicted (definite understatement)...What do you think about his feelings for both Arthur and Gwen? Can you speculate as to why Bradley might have written this relationship in this way?

4] What one word would you use to describe Viviane's actions and influence in this retelling of the Arthurian legend? It seems the older she gets the less she trust and the more she meddles...

What did you guys think?

I have been a bit behind and was just reading along and checking in on responses before, but I guess I'll jump in and try to add to the discussions now!

1] Morgause compares her own sons to dogs and Gwydion (Mordred) to a cat...what are the advantages and disadvantages of being each animal? How do you see this playing out in the rest of the novel?

Dogs are man's best friend. They are loyal and will protect Arthur till the end.

Cats, on the other hand, are thought to be more of an enigma. They are often described to be more intelligent and sneaky with ulterior motives. I think that the metaphor of Gwydion as a cat seems to link with several other parts that foreshadow Gwydion's role in bringing down Arthur. In addition, cats are often related to magic; many witches have familiars that are cats. Perhaps it also shows Gwydion's proficiency in using the Sight

3] Lancelet seems a little conflicted (definite understatement)...What do you think about his feelings for both Arthur and Gwen? Can you speculate as to why Bradley might have written this relationship in this way?

Bradley does a good job in showing the emotional turmoil that Lancelot suffers from. I think that it shows Lancelot's undying love for Arthur. The fact that Arthur has to initiate the affair between Gwen and Lancelot and is even there in the bed while it is going on shows the almost homoerotic devotion that Lancelot feels for Arthur. He is definitely more of the dog than the cat from the previous question. As much as he feels undying love and devotion for Gwen, he feels the same for Arthur.

4] What one word would you use to describe Viviane's actions and influence in this retelling of the Arthurian legend? It seems the older she gets the less she trust and the more she meddles...

Desperate

Even Morgaine recognizes that Viviane's goals are much too lofty and there is no way they can just erase Christianity and place paganism back into the hearts of all people.

As a side-note, I was so happy when Morgaine and Viviane were reunited! My heart broke for Morgaine when they were separated again from each other so soon

Catherine wrote: "I have been a bit behind and was just reading along and checking in on responses before, but I guess I'll jump in and try to add to the discussions now!

1] Morgause compares her own sons to dogs a..."

First, Catherine, I'm so glad you've been reading along and are now adding to discussions!
Second, I'm so glad that I can now talk with someone about what went on with Lancelet/Gwen/Arthur...I was so amazed at what I was reading, that I had to reread to make sure I got it. I really, really, really didn't expect that, but I think you are right it does play into Lancelet and also Arthur's love for each other. I suppose that Bradley is just taking something that people thought and making it an actuality...I have read about the homoerotic undertones of the Knights of the Round Table. I like the idea that Lancelet can only be with Gwen with Arthur's blessing.

And, finally, I also have to agree with you Morgaine and Viviane were so lovely together and they do understand and bring out the best in each other.

Hi Stephanie! Yes! I was so amazed at the threesome that I had to reread it too and didn't quite believe that Arthur was there the whole time until Lancelot confessed to Morgaine. I really liked that Lancelot was with Gwen only with permission of Arthur also. It seems that sexual desires seem to play a highly important role in this book and many of the changes from the more traditional Arthur story reflect this.

For example, in other version, Igraine is essentially raped by Uther who is under the spells of Merlin to be disguised as Gorlois, but in Bradley's version Igraine recognizes Uther and their love-making is consensual. Perhaps it is a reaction against women being passive receivers of the male's desire of sex. All the women, Morgaine, Gwen, and Igraine, have expressed desires for men. Maybe Arthur's blessing of Lancelot and Gwen have the same effect. Unlike other versions where Arthur is unwise to the situation and being cuckold, he is fully knowledgable of the situation and perhaps part of the reason he allows it is due to his love for Lancelot.

And then there are the sexual desires that are put down and thought to be sinful: Morgaine and Arthur; Gwen and Lancelot; Arthur and Lancelot? But Morgaine constantly remembers that in the religion of the Goddess, none of it is that bad. It is only in the eyes of the Christian world that incestry/adultry/homosexuality is wrong. I wonder if Bradley is siding against the sterile version of Camelot in respect to the Beltane fire rites of Avalon. Certainly, our society, the one that Bradley writes from, is definitely more like the Camelot world. A lot of the relationships seem to break taboos that many modern day societies hold.

Cats and dogs have always struck me as sexual opposites, cats being more feminine and dogs being masculine. I took it as a drawing of distinctions between the characteristics of the two genders. The cat's quiet dignity and intellect are far more intimidating than the dog's frank friendliness.

Viviane I feel does the wrong things but for the right reasons, so I was very saddened by what happened. I had to read the section twice to make sure I hadn't skipped ahead by accident, it came so out of the blue.I think it was a surprise for Viviane too and if the work of the goddess, her cruellest trick yet.

As for Lancelet, the penny dropped for me when he told Morgaine about his homoerotic episode. Patriarchal societies are traditionally as condemning of sexual difference as they are oppressive of women, so I not surprised Bradley snuck it in somewhere.

Unlike other versions where Arthur is unwise to the situation and being cuckold, he is fully knowledgable of the situation and perhaps part of the reason he allows it is due to his love for Lancelot.
i like this version better. i've always wondered how a man as powerful as arthur would allow himself to be taken advantage of in that manner. and, while i like the sean connery/richard gere/1st knight approach, i don't like that it's only arthur in his older age that allows lancelet to be with gwen. the idea of sexual consent and desire is a modern one and i am glad that bradley gave such a spin to this tale.

I wonder if Bradley is siding against the sterile version of Camelot in respect to the Beltane fire rites of Avalon. Certainly, our society, the one that Bradley writes from, is definitely more like the Camelot world. A lot of the relationships seem to break taboos that many modern day societies hold.
intentionally or not that is what she has done, but i think it's that way so we, the reader, can fall somewhere in the middle...in essence so we can choose the right path.

Viviane I feel does the wrong things but for the right reasons, so I was very saddened by what happened.
i wish i liked viviane, it seems that many people do. i still have a hard time seeing how she is truly doing what the goddess wants and not just what she wants. i think the goddess has something in mind and viviane in her impatience tries to make it happen and in doing so screws things up royally.

As for Lancelet, the penny dropped for me when he told Morgaine about his homoerotic episode. first, i just want you to know, amanda, that i had to google 'the penny dropped', as i did not know this, and i quote, 'colloquial British phrase'. i found that it is not like 'waiting for the other shoe to drop', but more like 'the light bulb came on'. :D and, it is true that patriarchal societies are a bit prudish, for lack of a better word. i would like to reiterate the fact that it does seem that bradley is making a deep divide and putting things in a black or white context and we then have the choice to decide how far we lean towards one side (christian, prudish, camelot) or the other (goddess, liberal, avalon)...i like that this book really is a social commentary as well as a fantasy and a retelling.

Sorry for the confusion caused by my bumpkin phraseology. I am surprised that this is a uniquely local phrase as it is used so widely here it fe els pretty universal.

As for Bradley's ' deep divide', am I the only one feeling a little manipulated by the author? It feels like she is trying to give the illusion of bring even-handed by showing Avalon ' warts and all', but the Christian side is undeniably receiving the most critisism.

i definitely feel manipulated, which is why i think some story and the characters involved drags for me at times. it seems that each character is an allegorical representation of some vice or virtue and sometimes i can pick that apart to get at what the character is feeling etc. and sometimes (as is the case with me and viviane) i get stuck in seeing only the one dimension. the christian side is receiving the most critisism and i can see why many 'straight and narrow christians' would be turned off by this book (even without the threesome/incest etc.).

oh, and please use your bumpkin (<--never thought of British phrasing as being 'bumpkin)phraseology, as else will i be able to impress my friends with a clever phrase?! :D

I was teasing with the bumpkin comment, but I do usually avoid overly colloquial language in multi-national contexts incase I confuse people (waiting for the other shoe to drop isn't a phrase I am overly familiar with, though I think I catch its sentiment). I was writing on my phone to try and catch up with the discussions and I guess it slipped through :)

Stephanie wrote: "Viviane I feel does the wrong things but for the right reasons, so I was very saddened by what happened.
i wish i liked viviane, it seems that many people do. i still have a hard time seeing how she is truly doing what the goddess wants and not just what she wants. i think the goddess has something in mind and viviane in her impatience tries to make it happen and in doing so screws things up royally.
"

I kinda like Viviane sometimes, especially when she talks about how how much she loves Morgaine.

But she is quite infuriating at times. It would be so frustrating to be Morgaine and dealing with a person who is always convinced that she is right and doing the will of the Goddess.

Viviane sees everything in black and white and seems just as tyrannical as Gwen/Christians in the novel.