Classical Self-Education discussion

The discussion thread for Plato's "Crito".

So here in the dialog often thought of as the companion to the Apology, we have a very different Socrates. Where the Apology shows him testing the boundaries and ideals of a man's relationship with community/state/law, the Crito brings an absolutist Socrates to the conversation. Here the ideas of citizenship are examined...entirely from the viewpoint of the state, and the individual's interests are entirely subjugated to the desires of the state. Where in Apology we see a man claiming relief against a misguided and repressive state, in Crito we find a man willing to kill himself simply to go along.

Here we can begin to argue our own points on the role of an individual in a community, but setting our personal ideas aside to some extent, I think we might agree on a couple of points:

#1: The attitude of complete subjugation to the state as expressed in Crito isn't something most of us would personally be able or willing to adopt.

#2: Given that many/most/all/some would not obey, a system dependent upon such obedience is probably flawed, perhaps fatally so.

No modern state has a pure form of this government today, but the USA comes the closest. Of course, we spend an enormous amount of resources to bring individuals into line with the laws, and just as much to constantly test, create, and reform laws to cause as little friction with individual life.

[I personally would suggest a system where the viewpoint isn't that of a top-down government, but a body politic composed of individual interests. There are some functions all citizens require, regardless of whether or not they agree. There are some few interests where all agree. There are many where the vast majority agree. The rest is largely well-intentioned meddling and ill-intentioned fraud and thievery.]

This struggle between the individual and the state, between the conscious of a man, and the will of the group is something which arises again and again. I'm not sure Crito does much to help the student figure out these problems.

The Penguin edition I'm reading raises the question of whether or not the Crito was written by Plato or by his nephew Speusippus. It does seem quite different from the Euthyphro and Apology.

The personification of the Laws of Athens is a bit odd. That part of the dialogue seems different - almost tacked on.

I didn't see this as a struggle between the individual and the state, but as Socrates choosing to be consistent in his personal code. He says he spent his life telling others and himself that one must be just, and to escape would be unjust. Certainly, the sentence can be viewed as unjust, but the underlying system of Laws is just. If he escapes rather than being pardoned, he violates the law and acts in an unjust way, which he refuses to do. It is certainly an extreme position, given the consequences, but Socrates values his principles over his life.

The struggle is partly defined (within the limited context of the first central dialogs) between The Apology and Crito, where one tries to define a new citizenship, the other some would criticize as a blind obedience to the state. Readers might enjoy a Yale Univ. lecture on the subject (which doesn't really get cookin' til 2:20 or so)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsRexM...