Victorians! discussion

Published in September of 1863
For discussion of these chapters

Have not quite finished yet, but what surprised me is the little attention given to Lady Dedlock's demise. There was no funeral description, no tears, sorrow, words of remembrance and it seemed kind of cold and uncaring to just drop her. There was only one mention of Esther wearing mourning clothes.

Mr Woodcourt has declared his love for Esther, but it is destined to go nowhere as she is engaged to Mr J. Personally both of these men seem like great catches but of course Esther loves Mr W. will she carry on with Mr J as her husband I wonder?

Added later...I have finished and found the read fulfilling in so many ways. The characters, real as can be, became essential and elemental. I was not at all surprised that Richard died. He was a poor soul who was sacrificed at the altar of greed and money. I could not help but think of that saying, "If you have your health you have it all." No matter how the Jardynce case turned out Richard had lost his health and no amount of money could buy it back for him (something I think Steve Jobs learned as well!) he was doomed as so many are who make money the sole object of their lives.

Yes, there was a happy ending but it cost lots of people a lot to have it come to pass. I think in the end I felt the most sorrow for Mr Jarndyce . He was such a noble, ethical man who in the end did not get the girl of his dreams. So sad really that his love for others most heatedly expressed through Esther does not take place in a marriage to Esther. He makes the ultimate sacrifice, one we can only imagine and not come close to furfilling ever within our own lives.

How did you come out on whether Richard genuinely loved Ada?

I hadn't thought of it this way before you mentioned it but Mr. Jarndyce does sacrifice for the girl he loves. There is quite a theme of real v. false charity in this novel. That could be interesting to discuss.

I think in that small space left in him for true feelings, he did love Ada, at least I would like to think so. I am brought back again to the concept of an addict. They will literally sell their soul to get their fix and for Richard his fix (obsession) so filled him up he lost sight of what and who cared for him. I feal he and Mr J are the most tragic characters within this book. My feelings for Richard did change as the book progressed. For Mr J they stayed the same from the get go.

Good idea about the real and false charity issues. I would love to discuss it.

How very sad a women's fate was then! I can only think that time has proven that women along with their counterparts are to be treated as one. What is fair and just for a man is now fair and just for a woman. At least one hopes that it is true, although in some parts of the world, life has not much changed for a woman. How incredibly sad!

Finished - exhausted. I must confess that this book did not grab me like many of Dickens' other novels. I found it difficult to relate to the central characters, and the legal suits anticlimactic end, while providing quite a statement on the ridiculousness of the affair and the tragic consequences on the lives caught up in it, had somewhat the same effect on me.

Dickens is clearly a master of language. The style and voices of the novel were truly innovative. The merits of this novel are easy to appreciate...I just didn't fall in love with it.

So glad you were able to join us, Greg. Sorry it was not as good as you probably hoped it would be, but I am sure you did find it interesting.

I finished this today too, although until now I didn't realize this was the day set for us to finish (just a coincidence). I likes this one better than some of his others and I think it's because there's actual dialogue and not just description or thoughts. I was interested in people's ideas above of stereotypical Victorian novels/ plot. I'm still not totally sure what the result was of the legal suit... and who started it?

I don't think there was ever one clearcut person who originated the suit. I think it was that there were a number of contested wills and of course a number of different people named as heirs who of course wanted the money especially since there originally seemed to be gads of it. I think ultimately Richard and Ada are the declared heirs, but by this time there is nothing left. The lawsuits and hence the lawyers have consumed it all.

Thanks for joining us, Lauren. I hope you can join in with us for the Bronte discussion as well.

Marjorie wrote: "Lady Dedlock's death is one reason why Victorian novels -- as much as I love them -- irritate me at times. Or at least the attitude of ENGLISH novels of the Victorian period -- the way they treat women. Really, Lady Dedlock did not need to die. Why could she not have been re-united with her daughter and lived happily with her and Mr Woodcourt?
..."

I quite agree! I really was expecting Lady Dedlock to live. I expected consequences -- a life spent in penance -- but instead, the message is that such behavior is never to be tolerated and never be forgiven. I suppose for its day the novel was progressive, as a child born out-of-wedlock is permitted to have a happy and conventional life.

Overall, what can I say, it's Dickens, he certainly has a way with words and insight into character. The many minor characters (who mostly get their own story!) made the novel so long; but it also gives the reader a sense of society, which, after all, is made up of many characters.

This discussion thread has added to my enjoyment of Bleak House and I'm glad I found this group. Now onto Bronte sisters! By March I'll be reading with the group instead of slightly behind.

So glad you were able to read with us. Happy that you are onto the Bronte sisters. Hope you enjoy them too!