Great African Reads discussion

David wrote: "First 30 pages...... have a feeling it is going to get tough and exhausting. Should I continue?"

The first 30 pages are kind of a snoozefest. It picks up as you read on. I am enjoying the book as I read on.

you are right: page 120 now and I like the Jak-Milla stories.....
Angela wrote: "David wrote: "First 30 pages...... have a feeling it is going to get tough and exhausting. Should I continue?"

The first 30 pages are kind of a snoozefest. It picks up as you read on. I am enj..."

Finished ninety percent. The story tugs at the heart's strings in the mid-1950s when Milla adopts, nourishes, and teaches Agaat. New side of Milla, beautifully reflected in Agaat's care of Milla later on--however we all know that the plots doesn't proceed linearly. The last quarter of the book proves most interesting, actively engaging the reader when Jakkie returns from the Air Force to Gdrift. Look out for multiple uses of the color Red, for the detailed cataloging(?) of plants, animals, topography. Finally, trace Agaat's physical and psychological growth overtime for which Milla nursed and guided. Have Agaat, and Jak, learned to "mimic' Milla?

I've almost reached half way and find the reading almost compulsive. There are disasters both personal and related to the farm/land and it's Agaat who is strong. The relationship between Milla and Agaat is combative, loving, their own sort of marriage. Could it be a mother/daughter sort of relationship too in a way with all the difficulties that are common there.

This is one of those books that does become a compulsion after a while.

I haven't had a chance to start yet, but this discussion has really piqued my interest. I think I'm better prepared to settle in with this book and take time with it than I was at the start of January.

I am about 50% done - I know everyone says it gets better and yes I am interested to get some of the blanks and my questions answered
But something is missing for me.
At this time I am not liking Milla. I understand as a woman she is as much a victim of the times as Agaat.
As mentioned I am going forward to the last quarter of the book.

Beverly, feel free to list some of your questions... I'll be keeping them and others in mind as I read.

I think it's great that this book has evoked some very different reactions from readers.

Sue wrote: "I've almost reached half way and find the reading almost compulsive. There are disasters both personal and related to the farm/land and it's Agaat who is strong. The relationship between Milla and ..."

That is exactly what I am thinking. Agaat appears to be more like her first born. I see that love hate relationship that often occurs with a mother and a teenage daughter, yet they are co-dependent on one another. I am interested to see how the relationship unfolds as Jakkie grows up.

Beverly, when I find myself wondering about Milla, I recall her relationship with her mother and also that she seems to have been forging a different type of inter-racial relationship for her time for which she had no example. She also lived a very harsh life from the sound of it.

I just realized as I was reading how young Agaat was wheen Jakkie was born.

Potential SPOILER....................



when I did the math, it appears that she must have been ten or eleven when she helped with the birth. No wonder their bond was so complicated (Milla and Agaat's) and Agaat and the child's so strong.

I agree Angela, their love/hate relationship does seem like that seen with a mother and teenage daughter but they are also co-dependent. Emotionally they only have each other and the child. Jak is useless and the neighbors are clueless. The other workers on the farm don't really seem to be part of the picture, merely tools for the farm.

At the 50% mark this is how I see Milla
A woman who loves her land and has a strong sense of how to not only love her land but live with her land so it provides for her and her workers.
I also see her as a lonely woman with a very strained relationship with her mother, a pretty-boy husband who was not quite what she expected but will use as baby breeder.
Milla needs someone as a companion/to help manage the household/farm. She knows she cannot rely on any of her female friends - as they have a "grin-and-bear it attitude" when it comes to male/female relationships.
Milla wants to "mold" Agaat into her image as she knows that she will need to be strong to survive.
Milla seems to be challenging the role of women in society - so part of her bonding with Agaat could be because of the abuses against women.
I also see the Milla/Agaat relationship as a master/slave one - which are always complex as there are as many variations as there are situations. And with the child that added another dimension to the relationship.
Agaat takes on all of the challenges that Milla throws her way. I wondered what would have happened if Agaat had failed those challenges.
So I see Milla as a budding "feminist" (cannot think of another word) in a master/slave relationship where rules are changing. At this time I do not get the feeling that she is forging a new inter-racial relationship but is doing what will work for her own survival, the farms and her child.

But I will see what the second half reveals

I agree Milla and Agaat are in a master/slave relationship, and have to be by the very nature of life in South Africa at the time. By the reactions of her husband, neighbors, clergy, and other workers, though, I think she was creating a different type of relationship. I'm thinking of Agaat's special room with it's particular furnishings, Milla's concern for Agaat's religious upbringing, Milla's apparent teaching Agaat her favorite places on the farm--the places she'd been shown by her father. This all seems above and beyond. These also happened in the first half of the book.

I don't know that I see their relationship as a slave/master relationship. Those types of relationships tend to be about power and control where the master wants to breakdown the person to the point of submission. They don't want to educate the slave because knowledge is power. I think Milla's mother was a hard woman and instilled the same kind of work ethic in her that she is trying press upon Agaat. She wants to educate her and wants her to be independent, but she understands the boundaries of apartheid in South Africa. She is cognizant of Agaat's feelings but understands that she has to learn her "place" as far as society is concerned. I think this is prevalant in the christening scene.

Also, I think Agaat takes liberties that no mother, let alone master, would allow her to do if there wasn't a special type of relationship.

Spoiler alert***


This would be the breastfeeding scene. She was more worried that Jak would find out instead of the bond she is creating with Jakkie.

Yes Angela. So true. Agaat was allowed to take liberties, and in some sense almost encouraged to take them. At some points, Milla became somewhat envious of her but never hated her or seemed to see her as beneath her in a "slave" sense. Where I see the master/slave relationship still existing is more superficially, as it is imposed on them both by society and also is still somewhat ingrained a bit in her (also the Christening scene).

I still see Milla as forging a new type of relationship with Agaat. I do still have half the book to go, but with the back and forth time line I don't expect my view to change.

Why did Milla 'adopt' Agaat?--from unhappiness? from childlessness? from Christian responsibility? from an assertion of autonomy? Milla opposes conventional advice to take responsibility for Agaat's basic care and communication, for her Africaans' upbringing and education, and for modeling Agaat's behavior on the concept of her name, Good. Jak is skeptical that Milla can do that. Does Milla appear to have succeeded? How does Jakkie's birth affect Agaat?

Great questions Asmah. You have finished the book I think from the rating I see. Personally, I think she "adopted" Agaat from her own neediness. Knowing she was going to have a child and how useless Jak was, Milla needed someone on her side. I think Jak is more than skeptical about Agaat's training and presence. I think at least part of him loathes her, loathes the idea of this black girl virtually living inside his house.

From what I've seen so far (at some 46% through), Jakkie's birth has matured Agaat in many ways while also cementing her relationship with Milla. In many ways she is the child's mother and she has a new confidence within the household. She knows her place and her importance.

I'm looking forward to the second half of the book and how it might affect my perceptions of all the characters. I'm also enjoying this discussion very much....it's adding to my enjoyment of the book greatly.

Really interesting comments by all and a reason to struggle my way forth through this book. However, yesterday I just had to read Achebe's 'Girls at war' to get out of the way Agaat was written and read some less heavy short stories.... I still find it a difficult 'to love to read' this book but your comments make it worthwhile to go ahead....

I hope you can stick with it David. I have found it much easier as I've read on. I still don't like the stream of consciousness sections...to me they are the least successful parts of the book. Maybe I'll feel differently later in the book. I also find it works better if I can read about a chapter at a time at least so I get a good feeling for all the characters and the time each time I read.

I'll be curious about a masculine point of view also.

Does anyone else find it just a little too long.

honestly , it is this discussion that pushing me to continue reading this novel .Not that I hate it ; so far it is a worth reading one , but it is very heavy and it force me to get back each while to link some items , and yes Lesley I feel it too long ! sometimes there are too many details specially in the consciousness sections ..

For Milla and Agaat relationship , I am in chapter 4 about (15%) , the exercise scene was very confusing , I felt a strange mix of " love hate relationship" , Agaat cared for Milla but wanted to show her she is the one in control? she got the power now /she is in charge ?

The point about slave/master relationship , I will keep it in mind while reading , it is so soon for me to determine this ...

Andrea wrote: "Jak never quite rings true for me. (...) He seems like parts of different potential characters thrown together.

I have the same feeling so far. And if he's as incompetent as presented, I wonder why the farm's finances don't suffer more (despite the damage control from Milla and Agaat, it seems that he'd still be in control financially).

Asmah told us to look out for the uses of the color Red in this story.
I too have noted the many instances of the word RED especially in light that while there is much detail in describing the working details of their lives, the details often do not involve color details.
I find as I am reading visualizing the scenes in black & white because of the lack of color detail and then get a jolt when a color word appears.

After red, notice the most common color words are green and white.

Sue wrote: "Great questions Asmah. You have finished the book I think from the rating I see. Personally, I think she "adopted" Agaat from her own neediness. Knowing she was going to have a child and how useles..."

I agree with Sue.

The color blue comes up quite a bit later in reference to the flowers.

I am at the 60% now and anxious to get to the parts that fill-in the middle parts as the story.

I too am enjoying the discussions.

I have a comment/question - in telling the story that this part, Milla is constantly referring to Agaat's "deformed" arm whether is is in how Agaat performs a task or how she wears her clothes.

Why do you think this?

I wonder what people think about Milla's somewhat obsessive "spying" on Agaat. She wants to know what Agaat is doing all the time and there are many, many scenes that consist of Milla watching Agaat from a hiding place. Is this a form of control? Is it symbolic of how the master/servant relationship influences/controls the master more than the servant. While I do agree that Milla has an unusual relationship with Agaat, SPOILER ALERT: I understand why Agaat would grow resentful as she sees herself "adopted" and then "unadopted." Milla does not think rationally about what she is doing. The baptism is a good example. What does Milla really think she is doing? The many times she exposes Agaat to discomfort and embarrassment and sometimes danger by refusing to think ahead about how people will react to a black child. Is Milla that dense? Or does she somehow not care that Agaat will wait in a hot car, or be left sitting by the side of the road etc.?

David wrote: "Really interesting comments by all and a reason to struggle my way forth through this book. However, yesterday I just had to read Achebe's 'Girls at war' to get out of the way Agaat was written and..."

I too am reading other books while reading Agaat - mainly because of the stream-of-consciouness element that works best for me in small dosages.

Based on this literary technique - Milla is our narrator.

Is she a "reliable" narrator?
This is her pov on the what has happened and what is going on with the other characters.
Is Milla reading Agaat's and Jak's reactions/moods correctly?

Beverly wrote: "David wrote: "Really interesting comments by all and a reason to struggle my way forth through this book. However, yesterday I just had to read Achebe's 'Girls at war' to get out of the way Agaat w..."

Beverly, more great questions. And I believe this POV and reliability issue has much to do with what each of us thinks of aspects of Milla and Agaat's relationship, especially when Milla is helpless. We are privy to Milla's interpretations of Agaat's actions, expressions and words but these interpretations seem to be tainted by Milla's emotions related to her own fears and experiences, fears of being abandoned, neglected, hurt. In my experience, this is NOT part of ALS where cognitive function is preserved to the end. It seems more to me a part of Milla's personality, probably growing out of her childhood with a mother who provided no support or encouragement and an abusive marriage.

At other times it's obvious she knows Agaat cares for her.

As for Jak, I am only at 50% and I don't know if anything changes, but somehow I see Milla as more reliable here. She appears fairly honest in her portrayal of the handsome man who is not what she had hoped, didn't live up to the ideal of her father. Of course he may have been equally unhappy with her. I think they wore each other down. If it hadn't been the 1960s, would they even have stayed together?

Milla appears to be a strong woman and uses her strengths to get what she wants. When she no longer has physical strength, then her mind does seem to work overtime imagining motives, etc. But she also uses that strength to communicate. And Agaat knows her well enough to set everything up for the blue landscape flower viewing.

Beverly wrote: "I am at the 60% now and anxious to get to the parts that fill-in the middle parts as the story.

I too am enjoying the discussions.

I have a comment/question - in telling the story that this part,..."

I do have thoughts about the deformity also. If not for her deformed arm, Agaat would not have been available for Milla's purposes. She would have had more typical work already, such as the servants and laborers on Milla and Jak's farm. Thus the deformity saved Agaat for her special life.

I think Milla had mixed feelings about the arm. She wanted the sleeve to cover it adequately (keep it out of the way) but she also saw this little hand gently tend to Jakkie. Once again Milla is conflicted.

I am now at 65%.
I do like books that make me think and often change my mind opinions on what was read because of the author has done a good job of leading the reader where he/she wants us to be at the end. That often does not make for easy reading but for me does make for a better reading experience.

So last night when I finished reading - my mind was thinking what does the author want us to think about identity - how is identity formed by gender, class situation, political situation, how do others respond when one changes the accepted identity paradigm.

Then thought about how Jak reacted violently/abusively when he did not get his way or he was challenged - even when he was wrong. Milla and Agaat react differently (often times seem more passive) but does make more progress is getting change done.

This brought to mind - how often it is women who understand about taking little steps and can often bridge the gap on a conflict and prefer to do it in a non-violent way. This brought to mind the women who have won the Noble Peace Prize and the African women who are trying to bring "peace" and reconcilation to their countries.

Then this morning - when changing my calendar to Feb this is the saying for the month and it made me think of the interactions between Milla, Jak, & Agaat.

"When we are trying to be active and special and to accomplish something, we cannot express ourselves. Small self will be expressed, but big self will not appear from emptiness. From the emptiness only great self appears."

Very interesting thoughts Beverly. I'm at about 54%. Jak has just had a major confrontation with Milla and questions of motive, identity are huge at the moment. Certainly Agaat's presence in the home and in all their lives is a constant question of identity. She acts as a question of the national status quo, of Milla's place as mother, and at times she becomes a question of the leadership of the farm.

It is interesting how many women have come to the fore in Africa and The Americas to advocate for and lead their people out of disastrous times. (I'm not including North America in this statement)

I (re)read the Words w/o Borders Interview with Michiel Heyns to get a new slant on the story and on how Van Niekerk wrote it, thinking the time spent going over worth it. Got a refresher on the four voices and tenses, on the significant dates of Milla and Jak's marriage and Agaat's adoption, and on the shifting back-and-forth of power. During my reading of that novel I too had noticed all the five senses at play to tell the story--foods; hymns, speech, & rhymes; hands to embroider, to give birth, to plant, to escape from mud; scents of flowers and animals; noise of shoes and doors.

Thanks for the link Asmah. I started reading it but I realize it's taking me well beyond what I know from reading and I think I would like to discover more from the novel. I'm going to save the rest for later.

Asmah - thanks much for the link.
I too glanced over it quickly as I am not yet finished reading, but will read once I finish the book.

You're welcome, Sue and Beverly. I intended to mention that the spoilers came after the second voice but got caught up in thinking about what I'd read in the link and the book.

I liked that the story conveyed the characters' feelings through their thoughts, behavior, or body language and that it also described the real setting of the land and culture. Milla's illness is the core of the story.

I'm now at 63% and some of the things I started to read about in the article are becoming evident. I'm actually trying to read a bit more each day as I really want to experience what is going to occur.

That illness is one of the cruelest there is as it captures a mind inside a non-functioning body. I wonder if we are to see any metaphor for the function of the Africaaner system which was in the process of falling apart in the background of Milla, Agaat, Jak and Jakkie's lives. I'm sure it's not coincidence.

As an addendum to above, Milla really couldn't communicate effectively during her life and then was physically unable due to disease. No one around her could. The society around her was built on non-communication between races.

And perhaps genders? Jak's violence and attitude toward Milla is certainly very "gendered." The men do a lot of moving up and away, climbing, flying airplanes.

Oh my, I just realized something I must confess. I always say I don't mind "spoilers" but that's because I don't read linearly. I jump around in books if I'm losing interest to see if what's coming is worth working up to. I think it started in grad school and then as a book reviewer. That habit has probably totally changed my experience of this book, but, it hasn't diminished it at all, so I guess it's okay.

Andrea wrote: "And perhaps genders? Jak's violence and attitude toward Milla is certainly very "gendered." The men do a lot of moving up and away, climbing, flying airplanes."

I agree, non communication between genders too. We see it in Milla's parents. It's implied in the marriages of Milla and Jak's contemporaries. Only Jakkie and Agaat seem to communicate but will that last beyond his childhood? Seems doubtful.

I've now reached 90% and find I have even more respect for the author who has maintained amazing consistency in telling this story of a deeply troubled family through so many stages of its existence. The themes of communication, identity, love/hate, family/society and individual continue to resonate. I'm looking forward to the final pages, to learning the final secrets. This really is a great book in so many ways, not an easy book, but well worth the effort.

I finished Agaat yesterday and find that I was quite satisfied with ending, satisfied in the sense that it seemed justified by all that had come before. I'm very glad that I read this book and to have been able to participate in such a good discussion which definitely added to my reading experience.

Asmah wrote: "I (re)read the Words w/o Borders Interview with Michiel Heyns to get a new slant on the story and on how Van Niekerk wrote it, thinking the time spent going over worth it. Got a refresher on the fo..."

Thank you for the link, Asmah! It helped put some things in perspective.

Again , I love this discussion :)
I stopped reading for a couple of days , but I am back now .

Asmah , Thanks for the link , I havn't reached 20% yet , so I am not sure , will it be ok to read it now ?

Nile daughter wrote: "...I havn't reached 20% yet , so I am not sure , will it be ok to read it now ?..."

Nile Daughter, absolutely. Marieke mentioned in message 1 that the length of the book might require going into February. I'm certain that your posts about it will be insightful to other readers and that the the discussion will remain open.

still struggling at 65%.....

David wrote: "still struggling at 65%....."

David, you've almost reached some of the best parts of the story. It gets better.

This such a great conversation...David, i hope you stick with it because i'd love to hear your reaction! I am going to begin in a couple of days, if not tomorrow morning.

and yes, let's keep this discussion going through February! our next book will be for March.

Asmah wrote: "David wrote: "still struggling at 65%....."

David, you've almost reached some of the best parts of the story. It gets better."

Strange I thought I commented hours ago but I must have not posted it.
I agree with Asmah, David. A lot happens in the last quarter of the book. In the comment that I meant to leave I suggested trying to read to a natural break in the story---one of the time shifts, narrative breaks, or the end of a chapter. That helped me follow the story much better.

Asmah wrote: "Nile Daughter, absolutely. Marieke mentioned in message 1 that the length of the book might require going into February. I'm certain that your posts about it will be insightful to other readers and that the the discussion will remain open..."

Thanks , I am reading slowly , but moving and I will share any new thoughts I have .

Sue wrote: "I suggested trying to read to a natural break in the story---one of the time shifts, narrative breaks, or the end of a chapter. That helped me follow the story much better...."

excellent advice ! :D

* waiting for you Marieke !