Great African Reads discussion

Happy New Year everyone!

We will be reading and discussing Agaat this January and possibly February because of its length. My apologies to those who have been voting on selections in polls for November and December 2011--this group read was decided by consensus a number of months ago by a number of interested readers who decided January was the most realistic time-frame. I hope others will join us and i know that several readers are coming here from a fun challenge group--52 Books Around the World in 2012 (i think that's the proper name! sorry!) so please welcome these new members heartily (as if we would do anything different lol)!!

I've begun it and it seems like a book would also be enjoyable rereading.

Will probably finish the novel in a week. Milla runs a farm she inherited but can't persuade Jak, her insensitive husband, to adopt her views about agronomy:

Soil is everything,...healthy soil yields healthy animals and healthy people.

The story is more poetic than prosaic yet is not fanciful. The character of Agaat is sprightly and creative in nursing Milla while that of Milla is a contrast in being physically paralyzed yet mentally alert.

Wow, you read quick, Asmah!! I still haven't started, hoping to do so in the couple of days whilst I'm still off work.

Asmah , you are pushing me to start ! I hope I will be able to join you next week :)

I'm about halfway through. The narrative style is really complex, but so far it's a great read.

Muphyn wrote: "Wow, you read quick, Asmah!! I still haven't started, hoping to do so in the couple of days whilst I'm still off work."

Muphyn, thks. The author does well at describing physical details and at stream of consciousness.

Nile daughter wrote: "Asmah , you are pushing me to start ! I hope I will be able to join you next week :)"

Nile daughter, the author uses a variety of writing styles. One might appeal more. I'd like to know what you think of the characters, Milla and Jak. Progress into the story broadens the picture of their relationship and character traits.

Andrea wrote: "I'm about halfway through. The narrative style is really complex, but so far it's a great read."

Andrea, I'm at thirty percent. Parts are outstanding.

A bit behind on my reading commitments and hope to start it this weekend. :)

When more people are finished I'd like to discuss the concept, mentioned in some reviews, that this book can be seen as a parable for South Africa. I'm having some basic problems with that idea.

Andrea wrote: "When more people are finished I'd like to discuss the concept, mentioned in some reviews, that this book can be seen as a parable for South Africa. I'm having some basic problems with that idea."

The first half is set in the 1960s and 1990s; the second half in the 1970s and especially 1950s (still have to read that part). The country has been legislatively independent of GB for twenty years and more. During the time the novel is set, the Republic gets formed (1961) and the way is prepared to transition from apartheid to majority rule (1970s-1994). Is that formation, preparation, and leadership displayed by Agaat and assisted and observed by Milla?

Hi -

Here is a link to a conversation between Marlene Van Niekerk and Toni Morrison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaOsMo...

Hi -

I have just started the book but will be reading over the next week.
So far, the writing has drawn me in.

Beverly wrote: "Hi -

Here is a link to a conversation between Marlene Van Niekerk and Toni Morrison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaOsMo..."

I watched the video of Appiah, Morrison, and Van Niekerk and learned more about the novel Agaat. Listening does not replace reading it because so much was left out of the conversation. There were more parts to talk about and to (dis)agree about. I appreciate the opportunity to listen to those writers.

Asmah wrote: "Beverly wrote: "Hi -

Here is a link to a conversation between Marlene Van Niekerk and Toni Morrison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaOsMo..."

I watched the video of Appiah, Morrison, and Van ..."

I agree but it was just an hour discussion and often what I take away from these conversations is the author's pov and state of mind for writing the book.
Part of the reason for these type of discussions to help promote the book and increase sales so there need to be a balance between speaking to the book for those who read but yet not spoiling the reading experience for those who have not read the book.

I viewed this video a little while ago and after listening I wanted to read the book but just never found the time.

Beverly wrote: "...after listening I wanted to read the book..."

I found the book in the library, unshelved, laying by itself, and wanted to find out what it was about.

This morning, in Kalk Bay Books, I found copies of both the original Afrikaans edition, first published in 2004 and the English translation. I bought the Afrikaans edition. At 718 pages, it's going be a long read.

Question: are the strange accent marks part of the style or some sort of typesetting error in my copy? For example: You'd bétter help me... I want to séé where I'll be farming (I just got it from the library, haven't really started reading yet)

Oh wow, windy...I don't know. Let's see what the others say. I have it on kindle and will check later this evening. Sadly I have not begun reading.

Manu, I'm so happy you're joining us for this discussion.

Andrea, I'll keep your question in mind as I read and I look forward to what others have to say about that.

Beverly, thanks so much the links! I can't wait to check them out.

About 100 pages in, and I kind of embarassed to say this, but I am just having a hard time liking it. I was really looking forward to it but I have to force myself to pick it up. I am hoping it draws me in soon.

Windy, these marks are not in my edition.

I have almost finished this so interested in other's opinion.

@windy - I don't have those marks in my edition either

@Melanie - I am about 450 pages in, and I am having a hard time liking the book too. I am forcing myself to read it but now I kind of regret it as now I'm so far in I can't just quit the book, but I'd love to be reading something I enjoy instead.

Interesting...perhaps I'll let myself feel a little less excited about it. :/

Is it the style? The translation? Or is it simply a book you just dont enjoy?

At the beginning, the plain style and gross subject made me wince before the author Van Niekerk developed the characters, applied the microscope and telescope to the physical and social settings, and offered the reader a smorgasbord of writing. By the middle of the story, I'm thinking she might eventually win the Nobel for literature. Just a thought. The writing of Agaat interests me enough that I'd like to read Triomf sometime and future books written by her. There is the last half to go.

Lesley and Kirsten: good to know! Unfortunately those marks are pretty distracting to the reading experience. This is the 2006 English translation printed in Cape Town.

@Marieke - The writing is actually very good. I think it is somewhat the style but mostly the subject matter/story and characters that just aren't pulling me in.

@Kirsten - Glad that I am not alone! :) I feel less embarassed now.

@Asmah - Good to know that you felt the same way at the beginning. That gives me hope that I will change my mind soon. :)

@Windy - No marks in my edition either. I would find them rather distracting also.

I liked the writing style although the swapping between characters had me a little confused the further on I went. I enjoyed the subject matter as I am also from a rural/farming background so found that detail of interest. I just found the book too long, and it seem to go on and on, reinterating the same thing eg. the discipline of the young Agaat.

Lesley wrote: "I liked the writing style although the swapping between characters had me a little confused the further on I went. I enjoyed the subject matter as I am also from a rural/farming background so found..."

The novel does seem to go everywhere. What holds it together is Milla's narration and diary from 1946 to mid-1990s on the farm. What holds the de Wet family together at all is through Agaat while each wants to claim attention from the son Jakkie. The writing verges from blunt detail to stream-of-consciousness poetry. There are South African place-names and topography, animal diseases, and daily communications and details. There is monotony in that neither Milla nor Jak can completely break away from each other and from the farm in their generation nor be decent to each other nor effectively work together. "The Way of Women", the original English title, is the local name for the Tradouw Pass, the mountainous, curving road with lay-bys which Milla and Agaat drove that time.

I have to admit that I don't like the stream-of-consciousness in this book.

Manu, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the writing style since you'll be (or are) reading it in the Afrikaans original. I suspect that the English translation is very good but I'm still curious to know more.

Sadly, I also haven't started yet... :(

Muphyn wrote: "Manu, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the writing style since you'll be (or are) reading it in the Afrikaans original. I suspect that the English translation is very good but I'm still c..."

Hi Murphyn. I've only read the prologue, so far. Haunting, evocative language. The setting is the Boland, just an hour's drive from where I grew up, so this has special meaning for me.
I can't imagine how the novel could be translated. I read Triomf in English and often wondered how a word or phrase would have appeared in the original. I learned Afrikaans as a second language at school many years ago. I don't have my little dictionary with me but I suspect that none of the occasional words I don't understand would appear in it. After the first page I found myself reading aloud, slowly, savouring the music, as well as the meaning of the words. I have writing (and other reading) to do and my guess is that, at this rate, I might take the whole of 2012 to finish Agaat, so don't expect to hear too much from me too soon.

I am about 20% in the story. I am reading on kindle and it does not have the strange marks.
It is taking me longer to read as I am. It really engaged in the story. There are parts that spark my interests and others that are ho-hum.
The stream of consciousness is not my fav literary technique so that is what is slowing me down.
I can see this first part is setting the stage for what the author will present later in the book.
I will see how much I can read this weekend.

Manu, I am reading in English and also wondering about the translation and how it affects the reading. I'm finding the last quarter or so of the book so painful, with the domestic situation, that I'm only reading it in small amounts. One reviewer felt that Milla was an extremely self-centered person, but the way it reads to me, she is no more self-centered than anyone else, she is just so fully revealed in the novel that it seems we see the world completely through a first person view. The depth of our knowledge of her is so great that it seems she is totally self-absorbed. I'm finding the book absolutely intriguing.

Manu wrote: "Muphyn wrote: "Manu, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the writing style since you'll be (or are) reading it in the Afrikaans original. I suspect that the English translation is very good ..."
Hi Manu, as I could read it in the Dutch translation which translation would be better do you think? The english or the Dutch,a s Dutch will be close to Afrikaans?

Hi David,
Intriguing question. Why not look for a copy of the Afrikaans original and read a few test pages? If you can manage it, your perspective might be fascinating. If that doesn't work, I might go for the Dutch translation. On the other hand, Michiel Heyns's English translation has been highly praised.

http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/4811/aga...

Manu wrote: "Hi David,
Intriguing question. Why not look for a copy of the Afrikaans original and read a few test pages? If you can manage it, your perspective might be fascinating. If that doesn't work, I mig..."

Hi Manu, Thanks fro the suggestuion and the link: interesting stuff. I'll have ordered the Dutch version already. Afrikaans can be very difficult for dutchies. I think I would b able to only understand 60-70%...

I met an elderly Dutch missionary who had been living in Canada and Suriname since the 70's. We got to talking about Kenya and he asked me if most of the people in Kenya were "Afrikaaners." It took me quite a while to figure out what he was getting at. Same with the word "Boer." Languages certainly change over time and circumstances.

Dutch people rarely make sense :)
I'll get my Agaat-copy tomorrow and I'm looking forward to start. Read 2/3rd of Children of Gebalawi by Naguib Mahfouz, which is outstanding: a must-read.... but also 600 pages. Don't know if I should start with Agaat or finish Mahfouz....

Ha--David, I've been reading the Count of Monte Cristo which is why I'm late to starting Agaat. It's not an especially difficult book to read but there are lots of characters and twists and turns...I don't want to stop and lose my place. Plus I'm having way too much fun with it.

But I'm enjoying the discussion here...the translation element is quite interesting. For some reason I thought that Dutch and Afrikaans would be mutually intelligible, the way Czech and Slovak are. Or rather were...apparently young Czech people don't understand Slovakian the way they could half a generation ago. Or maybe I have them backwards. Anyway, now I'm even more curious about Afrikaans.

David, he was making perfect sense! lol. He said "Afrikaaners" meaning black African people and by "boers" he meant farmers. Of course, I kept thinking he was meaning white South Africans of Dutch ancestry or maybe voertrekkers ( who did settle around my husband's home area) and since he apparently didn't want to come out and say "black people" it just muddled along for a long time with me saying what must have been totally incomprehensible to him, "No, there aren't really very many Afrikaaners in Kenya anymore. Most of them left after independence." Poor man, he certainly wished he'd never gotten into conversation with this crazy woman.

My problem with seeing the book as a metaphor for South Africa would be who does Milla represent then? What portion of white farmers trained and prepared blacks to take over their farms? In fact, from what I can understand blacks were largely kept ignorant of business decisions and the science of farming, unless they picked it up purely by observation. Milla provides Agaat with books, travel opportunities and specific explanations. I don't see the equivalent.

Ok - I am now about 40% into the book. Still not sure how I feel about the book. There are times by interest gets sparked and then get disengaged and feel that I am just reading words on a page.

Has anyone seen the series - Have You Heard From Johannesburg - it covers the same time period of the book and is be viewed on PBS.com
I will probably watch to acclimate to the political conditions.

I find some of the "thought streams" that are in italics really confusing. If I read them through, I can see what the writer is doing, but sometimes I don't have the patience and I try to skim them and then they really don't mean anything. It seems to be a book that really demands careful, attentive reading, but seems to be worth it. I finished the book quite a while ago and still find myself thinking about the characters and the choices they make.

First 30 pages...... have a feeling it is going to get tough and exhausting. Should I continue?

David wrote: "First 30 pages...... have a feeling it is going to get tough and exhausting. Should I continue?"

First impression is just a hand to signify the overall elephant. I admit the beginning can raise an eyebrow. Get to 70%, then decide whether to stay with it or leave it.

I enjoyed reading this discussion a lot! (thanks!)

I am about to start chapter three , it was very difficult to follow in the beginning , but more easier by moving on - but still can not be called easy- the sudden jumps needs concentrations , the parts in Italic are confusing , also sometimes I go back several pages to make sure I understood something I missed at first read .

Asmah wrote: "I'd like to know what you think of the characters, Milla and Jak. Progress into the story broadens the picture of their relationship and character traits. ..."

I was totally surprised by the change between chapter one and two between Milla and Jak , did not expect the relation to take this direction and that fast , I need to explore Jak more , hope next pages will help .So far , I am very interested in continuing .

Jak never quite rings true for me. If he is as self-aware as is implied by the conversations he has with Milla later in the book, how can he be so blind to her needs or ways he could make his own life easier. If he despises her enough to abuse her be for the wedding, how does he let her get to the point of controlling his view of himself so much? He seems like parts of different potential characters thrown together.

I finished last night and truthfully skimmed a chunk of pages. For me I just could never connect with the book. I recognize that author has huge talent, this one just wasn't for me. :)

Hi, I'm about 25% into the novel and now finding that I do like reading it. Initially I found it very difficult but now it seems to be flowing more easily and I'm finding it an interesting read. The specific stream of consciousness sections, though, don't seem as successful to me except perhaps to point out the extent of Milla's disease. Maybe this will be explained later.

I'm very glad this discussion is here (and that Nile Daughter reminded me) as I feel there is much below the surface of this book.