Great African Reads discussion

I'm looking forward to your comments ND and your Marieke when you start reading. And David I'm curious for your final impressions of the book.

grrrrrrrrrr!
I've never moved so slow.... actually this is the second time I've joined the 'list'. The first time was with reading Camara Laye's Radiance of the King, one of the few books I couldn't finish, and now I'm struggling again. However, I can see the layers and the work that van Niekerk has put in writing in this very extensive work. I still find it difficult to love it, but you girls have made me wonder why you love it so much, so there has to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.....!

David wrote: "grrrrrrrrrr!
I've never moved so slow.... actually this is the second time I've joined the 'list'. The first time was with reading Camara Laye's Radiance of the King, one of the few books I couldn..."

Should you take a break and read something lighter? I try to read something light that I can turn to when reading a book like this. A good mystery or something.

David wrote: "... still find it difficult to love it, but you girls have made me wonder why you love it so much, so there has to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow..."

The story is partly about nurturing, an emotionally happy activity, the circle completing itself when the nurturing is returned. What Agaat does for Milla was learned from Milla.

Just finished it today and I can't stop thinking about it. For me, it went really slowly until I hit the 1950s diary entries-- then I just couldn't stop reading! Learning about the beginning of their relationship put everything into perspective. I'll hide the rest of my reaction since it's spoilery:

(view spoiler)[I just feel so bad for Agaat. She was like an adopted child to Milla, until Milla got pregnant-- then she just became a servant. I know that the time and place had a lot to do with how Milla treated Agaat, but I still can't forgive her. I wasn't thrilled with Milla's actions throughout the book, but by the end I just plain didn't like her. That said, I really liked the book; it's definitely going to stick with me for a while. (hide spoiler)]

I can't wait to get my hands on it. Will be in a few days.

David wrote: "grrrrrrrrrr!
I've never moved so slow.... actually this is the second time I've joined the 'list'. The first time was with reading Camara Laye's Radiance of the King, one of the few books I couldn..."

David, you need to join us on a thread for a faster book sometime:) This one and Radiance are two of the slowest, strangest ones we've read. But I like this one much better than Radiance. I understand it better, I think.

It seems like people have liked this one more and more as they read...which was the opposite experience compared with the Laye book...at least for me.

Marieke wrote: "It seems like people have liked this one more and more as they read...which was the opposite experience compared with the Laye book...at least for me."

That was definitely my experience Marieke.

David, with your response to the book not changing at all, one question that comes to mind is whether this book has a different impact on men and women. It is very strongly from a woman's point of view. I know that doesn't always affect the impact but I do wonder with Agaat given the nature and intricacies of the relationships.

Miranda wrote: "Just finished it today and I can't stop thinking about it. For me, it went really slowly until I hit the 1950s diary entries-- then I just couldn't stop reading! Learning about the beginning of the..."

I had mixed feelings about all the characters throughout my reading.



SPOILER SPOILER





I do believe that Milla was greatly shaped by her mother, much as she rebelled against her. Horrible as what she did to Agaat before Jaakie's birth was, one must remember the pressure that Jak must have been exerting in the home too. At that time he despised Agaat and Milla's plans for her. No one escapes cleanly in this story.

@ Andrea: basically you're saying I was unlucky because I chose the two slowest books? That is funny! I trust you and hope I an pick up in March on something awesome. The fact is: I've read so many African writers lately and loved almost all of their works... The reason I keep on 'trucking' is the sheer fact that all of yo are sayng that the end reveals the beauty of it...
@Sue: This is definitely a book written by a woman, however I'm very much in touch with my female side!! :)

Thanks David. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

Asmah wrote: "David wrote: "... still find it difficult to love it, but you girls have made me wonder why you love it so much, so there has to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow..."

The story is partly ..."

I missed this comment earlier Asmah. Nicely put and picks up the positive element that I neglected in my summary above.

i often think the best discussions are the ones for books that are difficult so though i'm sorry so many have struggled with this one, i'm really glad that everyone has been sharing their thoughts and reactions. i'm very curious to see how i react. i think that this book is likely even more difficult than i had initially imagined, but the discussion here should keep me working on it.

@David--did you visit the Ivory Coast thread yet? the Tour will stop there in March/April and the choices so far look very interesting. and i'll be randomizing our Master List for Contemporary Lit this weekend and posting the top five for us to choose one for March.

I have finished the book today. This was also a difficult read for me and I think that was partly due to the stream-of-consciousness. Also at about the 40% mark understand what the story themes were and the rest of the book confirmed those thoughts for me.
I do appreaciate all of the discussion here, as otherwise I would have put done the book.
I appreciated that the author told the story of the times from a women's pov and how women whether white or black was a victim of the culture of the time. Milla had the privilege of white skin and land ownership. Milla saw Agaat as a victim and chose to "remake" her into being "human and white" (which in many ways was the same for the times in South Africa). Agaat also become manipulative in seeing how she could manipulate her situation despite being a slave. So Agaat and Milla were co-enablers with each other.
I thought the element of silence/not being able to speek was a powerful theme in the book - if you cannot voice your own thoughts then you have to depend on who can speak to tell your side. At first Agaat could not speak and Milla was her voice and at the end Milla could not speak and Agaat had to be her voice. And could either of them know that the communication methods developed when Agaat could not speak would be useful when Milla could not speak.
I think that it was on purpose that Jak and son did not have a bigger voice in the book as this was about female identity, and we only see them as their roles in the relationshipws with Milla and Agaat.
I appreciated that the information regarding the landscape and the working of the farm as this added to my knowledge.

Beverly, I really like that you mentioned that means of communication Milla and Agaat used at different times between them. It was so meaningful to finally find at the end of the book how that system developed. And I agree that this discussion helped in the reading of the book and in encouraging forward on the slow days.

Finished it... The end was beautiful and all story lines came together. I think the greatness of this book is in the fact that there are so many layers. All the different personal relationships between people: Jakkie-Agaat; Agaat-Milla, Milla-Jak and so on... I think that van Niekerk pulled something special off in this book. However, without this Goodreads-group I would probably have put the book aside halfway. I did find it hard to finish. Yes, the end is rewarding, I can see the beautifully arranged multi-layered structure of the book but I never really enjoyed reading it. What makes it a special book is that there is no right or wrong or good or bad. All characters have there flaws. Just like in real life. Was Milla good to 'rescue' Agaat from her miserable life? It seems that Agaat doesn't think so in the final chapter... I's a book that makes you think and wonder about the complexities of human nature. That is intriguing about it for me. I also can see that fellow readers will rate it 5 stars: I can imagine that you really love this book and that it gets under your skin. For everybody that hasn't finished it: please do. It's rewarding. The fact that it also caused irritation while I was reading it, makes it for me a good book but not one that I would recommend to my friends as a must-read. But thanks to all for your great comments: that made reading it so much more rewarding and interesting.

I'm glad you finished David, that you stuck with it and found the ending rewarding. This group really helped me through the first half particularly. I don't know if I would have continued otherwise. I think my rating is at least partially because of the intricacies of the writing itself and the success of the author's inventive methods. Juggling all those narrative threads, she really didn't seem to miss a beat. It was up to the reader to keep up with her.

I agree that I would be cautious about recommending this to friends. Not everyone would agree that the difficulties it presents are worth it. But I know I will be thinking about parts of this book for a long time. I have found that true of a number of books I have not necessarily really enjoyed while reading.

My response to the work is, I did enjoy most of the story, absorbing if sometimes rambling. The author kept readers thinking, drawing out answers on an unraveling string, altering the persona and relationships of characters. There was an overflowing cornucopia of realistic details that enumerated the spectrum of life then. While characters did some horrible acts, so they also did some heroic feats. I might recommend the novel to someone wanting a book about South Africa.

I have recommended this book to a friend because of its narrative style, this combination of narrative voices with stream of consciousness. I did warn that this isn't an easy book in many ways but did recommend it.

Another book group that I am in (more a general group that reads all kinds of books) is actually reading Agaat this month and the reviews/comments are very similar to those here. Everyone agrees that the writing is wonderful. Some absolutely love it and some are having a hard time getting in to it.

@ Melanie: are you double counting reading this book? In this group and in that other group: that is foul play! :)

Melanie wrote: "Another book group that I am in (more a general group that reads all kinds of books) is actually reading Agaat this month and the reviews/comments are very similar to those here. Everyone agrees t..."

I too agree that would not finish this book if not for the group discussion. I know I read the book from my American sensibilities - but thought that there was a lot of universal themes in this book that could apply to all cultures.
As for recommending the book to others - I have also but have mentioned the narrative style - so can decided if the book is for them.
This was not a book that I read straight through because of the the narrative style but I do that often enough that it does not distract from the reading pleasure of the book.
I wondered how Agaat lookd as an audio book - with a good narrator I could see it being more accessible to a larger reading group.
And as you can see I do much better finishing the contemporary book choices.

Oprah had selected Agaat has a recommended book. Listed below are the discussion questions from the Oprah website.

I thought some of you might find them interesting.

1. When we encounter Milla in the present, she's condemned to silence by ALS, a motor neuron disease. As she contemplates her life and mines her memories, do you think she's proud of the life she's led?

2. Agaat is told nonlinearly; what do you think van Niekerk can accomplish with that structure that wouldn't be possible otherwise?

3. Milla's relationship with Agaat changes rather drastically after Jakkie is born. How does Agaat handle the changes?

4. Milla's farm is called Grootmoedersdrift, which translates to Grandmother's Crossing or Grandmother's Drift. It had been passed down through the women in Milla's family; how would you describe the relationship between Milla and her mother? Do you see any similarities between their relationship and Milla's relationship with Agaat?

5. In what ways do you feel Agaat is an allegory for apartheid? Discuss.

6. We only see Jak, Milla's husband, through Milla's eyes. Were you able to find him sympathetic at all?

7. As close as Milla's son, Jakkie, and Agaat once were, in the end he thinks of her as an "Apartheid Cyborg. Assembled from loose components plus audiotape." What do you think he means?

8. Agaat's position in the home creates strained relationships with the other servants on the farm, leaving Agaat not fully part of their world nor the world of the white farm owners. Do you think Agaat is resentful of her position?

9. The author has in interviews describes Milla as a "vampire." Does this seem fair to you? Why or why not?

10. When Agaat takes over the farm, what can you imagine her doing differently?

Here are my impressions of Agaat:

1. Proud as a feeling of strength and confidence. Yes, Milla does some good things in life, passing her knowledge to Agaat and running the difficult farm.

2. Story is set in 1950s-1990s but is not told chronologically. Things in Milla's room brought in by Agaat stir memories, showing that Milla's mind is responsive, though her body isn't, and that Milla and Agaat are communicating with each other.

3. After Agaat delivers Jakkie, gives up her room in the house to him, and assumes household/farm duties, she nurtures the baby. Her position is untypical of a servant because she takes after Milla, who taught her and fostered her identity from childhood.

4. Milla's mother has more or less accepted the role of a married woman and the mores of S African society, but Milla appears to go along with it but thinks and acts in the interests of the farm and of her beliefs.
Milla's relation with Agaat, who was nurtured as Milla's child, remains communicative throughout the book. The bit of standoffishness between them is superficial, limited to what behavior is expected, because they are able to communicate and to cooperate.

5. On the farm, Agaat is not discriminated against; if visitors come there or the family goes off the farm, she comes up against apartheid. After apartheid ends, Agaat inherits the farm from Milla and Jakkie. The time she is segregated on the farm is when her lodging moved; even then it's proximate to the house and far from the laborers' lodgings.

6. I felt occasional sympathy for Jak when Milla's passion and intelligence overwhelmed him and when the things he wanted to do proved difficult. Unlike Milla, he wasn't a custodian of the land but used it purely for business schemes and quick profits. Then, I was sympathetic for the person who bought land from Jak.

7. Agaat, apartheid cyborg and audiotape, reflects the imprint of her surroundings. Jakkie's estimation is unfair, given that Agaat had high curiosity satisfied by reading and learning and had great command in chaotic circumstances.

8. I don't think Agaat's privileged position on the farm caused a lot of resentment in her. Isolated on the farm, she lacked for social opportunities outside of the de Wet's and she didn't get to see her own mother and sister Lys. Her upbringing in Milla's home and its distance did not enable such opportunities. I might have overlooked the part of the story in which she expresses resentment about being taken from Milla's mother's farm.

9. I never understood in the interview video with Appiah, Morrison, and van Niekerk why the latter two authors called Milla 'a witch', I believe. I think of Milla as decent in her saving Agaat from malnutrition, disease, pain, muteness, and early death. The reader has to realize that the story's written from Milla's point of view.

10. Agaat will make sure that the laborers receive what is promised them and what will improve their lives; in return she will expect them to be responsible.

Thanks for your great summary Asmah. I wonder if the writers looked on Milla as a witch because of her attempt to remake a person. It sounds like the author herself is questioning Milla's motives. Vampire is a whole other object. That would imply that Milla was living off of others, draining them. I don't see that at all in this story. She earned her way and worked hard on the farm. It appears she worked hard in trying to help Agaat. The one person she may have drained is Jak but that appears to have been a two9 way street--both with expectations of the other that would never be met.

As for #5, there were instances where Agaat was teased and made fun of by the laborers on the farm who also found amusement in her lodgings. She also did suffer verbal abuse from Jak off and on depending on his mood and anger. She never seems to react to it, just as she never seems to have much regard for Jak's place in the home.

As for #1, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I do feel Milla is proud about her farm, glad and proud about what she attempted with Agaat. I also feel she knows she didn't do right by Agaat along the way, wonders about her relationship with Jak and Jakkie. So a mixture of pride, disappointment in herself and hope in the future.

David wrote: "@ Melanie: are you double counting reading this book? In this group and in that other group: that is foul play! :)

Melanie wrote: "Another book group that I am in (more a general group that reads ..."

Hee hee. No double-counting here, not a bad idea tho :-)

We do different themes each month and February is book set in South Africa.

Now you guys are making me want to read this book- which I was disinclined to do after the earlier conversation!

Read it!

I second David's comment! And we'll be around for discussion too.