The Sword and Laser discussion

I LOVED Dune. The second novel in the series, Dune Messiah was fantastic as well. However, once Paul Atreides became a worm himself, (God Emperor of Dune) and was a "messiah" to people, I found the writing, plot and story to be boring and as a result, I quit reading the series.

Dune remains one of my fav scifi books, but I have never finished the series.

Should I go back and finish it, or am I not alone in the distaste for the last few books in the series?

Leto II becomes the God Emperor, not Paul. /nitpick

But anyway, yes, I would read the series through God Emperor of Dune and then stop. If you really want to keep going, read Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune but stay far far FAR away from the prequels. [insert rant about Kevin J Anderson's/Brian Herbert's blasphemous disregard for canon here]

(Heretics and Chapterhouse do address the consequences of the events in God Emperor, but do so mostly via soft-core porn, and not very good soft-core porn at that.)

Personally, I couldn't get beyond Dune itself. I don't know what it was about Messiah that made me give up on it, but it bothered me.
I didn't notice any cannon errors in the prequels I read, but I find the writing that Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson do is very hit and miss. For instance I really enjoyed the second Butlerian Jihad book, but couldn't get beyond the second chapter of the third for it's shear awfulness. (Maybe, my taste improved in the period between reading, I dunno.)

Jess wrote: "(Heretics and Chapterhouse do address the consequences of the events in God Emperor, but do so mostly via soft-core porn, and not very good soft-core porn at that.)"

The soft core porn is what bothered me. I remember reading it as a kid thinking "this is really lame, boring and stupid."

David wrote: "I LOVED Dune. The second novel in the series, Dune Messiah was fantastic as well. However, once Paul Atreides became a worm himself, (God Emperor of Dune) and was a "messiah" to people, I found the..."

You are braver than I. I loved Dune too, both the book and the movie (I might be the only person, besides David Lynch, who actually enjoyed the movie). When I knew about the following books, I jumped head first into Dune Messiah and, since I couldn't believe my eyes, Children of Dune.

Oh, boy, they were terrible!

There and then, I drew my line in the sand (pun intended). No more Frank Herbert for me, thankyouverymuch. And I haven't looked back since then.

I stopped after the third book. The first book is one of my favorites, and the second book is a great tragic ending to the story, but the third book didn't seem to be doing anything new. It felt to me like Herbert was trying to repeat a formula, so I left it there.

I stopped on Book 4 and never bothered with the prequels. I get my Cliff Notes version through my father who read them.

I really wanted to read the dune series, all of it, but I had the misfortune of watching the movie and I've lost intererest in doing so.

The Frank Herbert written Dune books are great, but "Children of Dune" is the real pivot point, if you didn't like the quest for the Golden Path, then you won't like 4, 5, and 6. Dune and Dune Messiah were supposed to be one book, but Herbert's publisher demanded a split.

The prequels are necrophiliacish abominations, Brian should be ashamed of himself

T(I might be the only person, besides David Lynch, who actually enjoyed the movie)"

Actually David Lynch hated the theatrical cut so much that he forced an "Alan Smithee" on it (where the director refuses to use his real name)

I don't think anybody has. Plus, there's all the freaking Dune books that Frank's son has been writing. I lost interest after God Emporer. You can only watch Duncan Idaho die tragically so many times before you start to feel sorry for the guy.

David wrote: However, once Paul Atreides became a worm himself, (God Emperor of Dune) and was a "messiah" to people"

I loved the first Dune but could barely get through the first few chapters of the 2nd and gave up there. But now you've got me interested!

The Dune books really are a journey that not everyone will enjoy. The first book is about power in many forms and then from there rest of the series shifts quite a bit and are not as clean. I would love to elaborate more but it has been so long since I read books two and on that I cannot remember many of the details. I read Dune every couple of years but the rest I read once and I am done with now.

The books that Franks's son wrote are VERY different in tone and they feel like fan fiction rather than prequels and then sequels to the existing work.

Like Ender's Game, some people stopped after the first book.

Personally, read everything the late Frank Hebert release, and it's interesting how Duncan Idaho became the lynchpin of the series...

Fresno Bob wrote: "T(I might be the only person, besides David Lynch, who actually enjoyed the movie)"

Actually David Lynch hated the theatrical cut so much that he forced an "Alan Smithee" on it (where the director..."

Oh, damn it!

Personally, I have the following logic for my Dune recommendations:

If you thought Dune was good, you should at least read Dune Messiah.

After reading Dune Messiah, if you loved it and want more of the same, STOP. The series does not get better; it gets less interesting from here on out. If, however, you think you want more Dune anyway, read Children of Dune.

After reading Children of Dune, if you didn't like it that much, you should stop. The rest of the Frank Herbert books are pretty much just like Children of Dune and feel similar. Don't hold out for a good ending, because Frank Herbert died before finishing. If, however, you enjoyed Children of Dune enough to read three more books just like it, then you should go ahead and read God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, and Chapterhouse: Dune.

What about Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune? Those are supposed to be the conclusion of the series, written from Frank Herberts notes. Has anyone read them and can offer an opinion?

Hunters of Dune was terrible, basically all that happened in the whole book was all the characters from the original Dune Trilogy was cloned.

I want to second Dinre's post. It is a great way to look at the flow of the books.

I love the first three Dune books. I love good world-building, and I loved how Herbert's setting managed to be both fresh and distinct while clearly embracing the traditions of space opera, epic fantasy and planetary romance that preceded him. And there's not many settings that blend sword and laser so well.

I love the first trilogy for the way it builds up a messianic hero, then deconstructs him. I'm not a fan of "chosen one" stories, and Dune is one of the first prominent deconstructions of the trope, so it holds a special place for me. God Emperor is sort of interesting for showing the distant ramifications of Children's conclusion, but it's about 50 pages of plot and 350 pages of philosophy. Some philosophy is probably necessary for the story, but there's far too much padding.

I didn't care for Heretics or Chapterhouse at all. They're basically self-indulgent examinations of whatever philosophy Herbert was into at the time. I won't even touch the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson stuff.

I enjoyed God Emperor much more after reading Dune Encyclopedia Tr

I read the first two and thought they were OK. Children of Dune started to lose me, and I gave up on God Emperors of Dune.

Therefore, I agree with the reading progression suggestion. :)

I read all the way through to Sandworms of Dune, and I actually enjoyed all of it. Some of the later books were a challenge to get through, but I wanted to have all my questions answered about the series. If you reach Chapterhouse: Dune, the cliffhanger at the end is enough to make you go out and get the last two books. Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune weren't the greatest, but I had to find out what happened! I would say that they adequatly answered my questions, and they were supposed to be based on outlines left by Herbert before he died. However, I felt they lacked the philosophical quality to Herbert's works that made them unique.

I liked how all Herbert's Dune books presented the cause and effect of how actions in Dune had far-reaching consequences into the distant future, and you get to see those consequences played out in each subsequent book. He used his books to tell an underlying story that had relevence in his day and today, and I felt that his son never tried to go beyond an entertainment value in his own novels.

I bought some of the prequels(Before I ever got on GoodReads, so I had no idea how terrible they were), and I only got through The Butlerian Jihad and The Machine Crusade before I couldn't take anymore. I would say that if you genuinely like the dune series, it is worth it to read through the originals and the two conclusion books to satisfy any lingering questions. Don't even consider the prequels. You were warned.

I've read the first Dune book several times and loved it. I've lemmed the 2nd book just as many times.

I wanted so much to like Dune, but I was not drawn into all the boring political intrigue and culture within the first 1/4 of the book. I was told I should have waited longer to get to some meat. But I actually tried twice and failed. I'll possibly regret this, and might just try again in the near future.

Chris wrote: "I wanted so much to like Dune, but I was not drawn into all the boring political intrigue and culture within the first 1/4 of the book. I was told I should have waited longer to get to some meat. B..."

that's what I thought was the best part of the Dune series!

Read Dune; don't get the appeal. I wanted to stop, but I have to finish a book when I start it.

I forced my way through the first Dune novel as well. And as much as I wanted to like it, I simply couldn't get into it.

I loved Dune, it truly blew my mind. So I obviously read book 2, which was ok but I didn't mind since it was so short and it was a nice epilogue to book 1. I also made it to book 3, which I liked more than book 2, but it was still disappointing compared to book 1. I stopped there and after reading this thread I don't think I'll read the rest. I might read the wiki just to know what happens.

I loved Dune. It is one of my favorite books. I enjoyed the 2nd as well, but after that I really felt they went downhill. I've never even bothered to pick up the new ones. Once Frank died I think the series did too.

Fresno Bob wrote: "T(I might be the only person, besides David Lynch, who actually enjoyed the movie)"

Actually David Lynch hated the theatrical cut so much that he forced an "Alan Smithee" on it (where the director..."

Actually, David Lynch only put an 'Alan Smithee' on a TV broadcast version of the film that put in more footage that was cut out of the original film to make it close to three hours. I like the Lynch movie, but admittidly, I could never finish Chapterhouse.

Dune itself was one of my favourite novels as a teenager.

I disliked Dune the whole way through. I couldn't connect or like any of the main characters, and when I can't do that, I can't enjoy the book at all. Sadly, this also happened for me with Ender's Game. I want to like both of these books since they are classics, but I just can't.

I lemmed Dune three times in two formats (print and audio). Complete "meh."

I have read all of them incl the sandworms and hunters which I thought weren't great but I liked how it ended the series. I do think the first 3 are the best of the the lot. I think I'll have to re-read them cause it's been a good few years since I first read them and I kinda distrust my thoughts on any book I read more than a few years ago.

I read the Bulterian Jihad prequels and really liked them, no interest in reading the rest of the prequels or anything else by Andserson

Dune is my all time favorite book and I've read the six books at least a couple of times, but I would not recommend them to everyone.

I disliked Messiah the first time but I got something out of it and continued reading the series. The reading get's depressing, the good guys become more flawed and real, and some things are hard or impossible to understand. Heretics and ChapterHouse feel like an exploration on the Dune universe where Frank was plotting new ideas but never felt like a logical following to the previous books.

So, no shame in not reading the series (or even the first book). I think is not for everyone and is not a complete rounded work.

Ha ha, I love those Li'l Herbert/Anderson books. They're just so ridiculous.

I love the original Frank Herbert books but I kind of regret reading the Brian/Kevin volumes (and I haven't read either of the more recent ones). I'd be really happy if at some point they published whatever notes/drafts etc. Frank actually left behind for the book that would have followed Chapterhouse -- Hunters and Sandworms did not read to me like a logical conclusion to Heretics & Chapterhouse.

Joseph wrote: "I'd be really happy if at some point they published whatever notes/drafts etc. Frank actually left behind for the book that would have followed Chapterhouse -- Hunters and Sandworms did not read to me like a logical conclusion to Heretics & Chapterhouse.
"

I just finished the audio book of Hunters and at the end Scott Brick interviews Brian Herbert and Kevin J Andersen. In that they admit that the outline of Dune 7 that Frank left behind was only 2 and a half pages.
This was on the CD version of the audio book. I do not know if the interview is included in the Audible version.

AndrewP wrote: "I just finished the audio book of Hunters and at the end Scott Brick interviews Brian Herbert and Kevin J Andersen. In that they admit that the outline of Dune 7 that Frank left behind was only 2 and a half pages."

Which totally makes sense, and which is almost totally unlike the noises they were making when the books were first announced. I think if/when I read the Dune books again, I'll go back to ignoring everything that doesn't have the word "Frank" somewhere in the author's name.

On an only vaguely-related note, there was a God Emperor of Dune parody in an episode of The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy -- "Mandy the Merciless" was the episode title.

Joseph wrote: "Which totally makes sense, and which is almost totally unlike the noises they were making when the books were first announced."

Exactly. In The Road to Dune they made it sound like they had found this massive manuscript that had to be split into two books to complete.

"Based on the extensive notes of..." any dead author is a pretty big red flag for me.

You know I loved 1-4 but found 5,6 really hard to get thru. And while I understand peoples hate of the prequels I did enjoy them. And really fell in love with the story of Leto.

AndrewP wrote: "In that they admit that the outline of Dune 7 that Frank left behind was only 2 and a half pages. "

Interesting fact.
I guess I'll never read those sequels, then.

Thanks for the info!

Sean wrote: "You know I loved 1-4 but found 5,6 really hard to get thru. And while I understand peoples hate of the prequels I did enjoy them. And really fell in love with the story of Leto."

Yeah, I did not enjoy book 5 or 6 as much either, but I know people who did.

Julio wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "In that they admit that the outline of Dune 7 that Frank left behind was only 2 and a half pages. "

Interesting fact.
I guess I'll never read those sequels, then.

Thanks for the..."

That the problem, Kevin and Brian have now jumped the shark on the Dune book, now its just a cash cow for them, and I don't think they realize how bad/unneeded the books are getting. It just seems like they are pulling ideas out of their rear ends, and seeing if it can be made into a story, they if does not chaning up the idea. I don't think they will ever stop writing anything Dune related.

It's the rule of amtal, they are just testing the series until it breaks!

Dune and Dune Messiah are two of my favorites. Some of the best SF I've read. I think I like Dune Messiah even more than Dune, actually. Children of Dune is very good as well, but I liked Paul as a character more than his kids, so I didn't enjoy it as much as the first two. I'd still consider it required reading, however. God Emperor of Dune was kind of a slog. I didn't think I'd ever finish it, but in retrospect, I think it was worth the read for Duncan Idaho. I probably wouldn't recommend it to anyone but the biggest fans of Dune, however. I actually really, really liked Heretics of Dune. I thought Chapterhouse: Dune was very good, too, but I don't remember much about it except for the ending.

I love the David Lynch movie too, by the way. The ending is reductive, but everything else about it captures the essence of the novel perfectly.

Beth wrote: "I read all the way through to Sandworms of Dune, and I actually enjoyed all of it. Some of the later books were a challenge to get through, but I wanted to have all my questions answered about the ..."
I did read through the 5 Dune books (I enjoy epic political stuff, so liked the whole series pretty much) and was pretty bummed by the ending of the fifth. And then compared the death date and the publication date and was more bummed.

So was pretty happy to hear that his son was finishing it up. But I can't say I'd recommend reading them without reading the prequels. I haven't read the prequels, was never really interested in them. Actually the idea of prequels when the series wasn't even finished yet made me a bit mad!

But it's obvious that the 'new' ending of the series ends up tying into the prequels as much or more than the Frank Herbert series.

Dune is an extremely rare (for me) instance of a Lem. I got about 75% of the way through it many years ago, and was enjoying it quite a bit, but then I made the terrible mistake of watching the David Lynch movie. I hated the film so much I lost all interest in the book and gave up on the franchise completely.