Victorians! discussion

The lasting preservation of a secret is a miracle which the world has never yet seen.

In which the Vanstone family is introduced, along with Mr. Clare and his 'reprobate' of a son, Frank. A theatrical event is held and certain members of the afore mentioned families take their parts.

I did finish this section and as always Mr Collins has completely captivated me with his story and characters. There is not a character yet I do not like well...maybe Norah and Mrs Garth do seem a bit stuffy.

The author has raised that wonderful questioning and mysterious techniques he does so well by why Mrs Vanstone has a secret and of course her having another baby seems kind of preposterous as the reason behind the hasty departure of Mr and Mrs. Vanstone. After all she was probably too old. So what is the true secret I wonder?

I do like Frank, poor Frank..It seems as if his father Mr Clare really is quite hard on his sons. One can imagine it was not easy growing up a Clare. I know he is less than brilliant, but he does seem a kind soul and while perhaps not up to the everescent Magdalen, he does seem to hold her in high regard.

I enjoyed the play performance piece. How fitting that Magdalen should steal the show and be a born actress! I always love the little snippets of humor Collins always interjects into his writing. All I can think is that he was such a born writer as I slip again heartily into this story. He has never disappointed me and this book seems to be no exception.

Marialyce wrote: "I do like Frank, poor Frank..It seems as if his father Mr Clare really is quite hard on his sons. One can imagine it was not easy growing up a Clare ..."

I remember thinking the same. Pore him!!! But I've lernt by now that Collins never gives a portrait of a character without looking to forward developments ...

I want to like Frank. I'm just not sure... Clearly he'll reappear, but will he do so as the hero? I find it really interesting how Collins has presented his character. First we are introduced to Mr. Clare through the POV of Mr. Vanstone, and we see how Mr. Clare is unreasonably hard on his sons. But then, as we progress, one begins to wonder if Mr. Vanstone is not unreasonably easy on Frank. By the time he came home the second time I was beginning to wonder if Mr. Clare was not right after all. Personally I think Frank's had it too easy and he needs something to really work and fight for before he'll become the man he ought to be. I'm hoping that thing is Magdalen.

There is so much charm in Collins writing, I think. I found the laughing footman really charming.
She snatched up an empty plate from the table, to represent a sheet of music, held it before her in the established concert-room position, and produced an imitation of the unfortunate singer's grimaces and courtesyings, so accurately and quaintly true to the original, that her father roared with laughter; and even the footman(who came in at that moment with the post-bag) rushed out of the room again, and committed the indecorum of echoing his master audibly on the other side of the door.

I seem to remember something else very funny, I think it had to do with the theatrical, but now I can't find it.

I am just hoping that because of Mr Clare's treatment and judgement of Frank that he just adopts that mode of being. I guess it is the optimist in me. AS a hero well...I think that would be a stretch but you never know what the power of love can do!

I'm a sucker for Romance. It's the first thing I look for in any story, though that's not to say a story without a romance is necessarily a disappointment. Naturally I'm hoping he is the hero, until someone better shows up. I'm a hopeless case, really.

I loved the way in which right off the bat some mystery is introduced into the story, that is one of the aspects of Collin's writing of which I enjoy the most. He always creates an intrigue.

I wonder of Magdalen's "foreign" looks, at least in relation to the rest of her family will come to have some significance to the story, perhaps it is foreshadowing something in relation to this mystery. It had crossed my mind that she might not be Mr. Vanstone's daughter, which would be ironic considering how much he dotes upon her. Also it is remarked that her never was considered strange as well.

Mrs. Garth seems to hold a curious position in the household, as I believe it was remarked that both Nora and Magdalen were now too old to have need of a governess and yet the family keeps her on, and she seems to have been sort of adopted in as a member of the household. It reminded me of Gabriel Betteredge in The Moonstone who was a family servant that was also treated like a close family friend more so than being treated as one would expect a servant to be. I loved the way in which Mrs. Garth is always just sort of in the background parroting what Mrs. Vanstone says, particularly when they are speaking of Magdalen.

In regards to Frank, it is too soon for me to really tell what I think of him, but while on the one hand his father does seem to be rather hard upon him and I can sympathize with the treatment he receives from his father, on the other hand he does seem a bit like something of a good for nothing.

I found that curious about Magdalen's physical description, too. And that her name is Magdalen. I thought that telling. Or would be if it were Dickens. Collins is a bit odd to me. He writes in a very accessible style, but occasionally caricatures like Dickens does, and occasionally philosophises like George Meredith does. I have an example or two to share in the discussion of Scene Two.

The examples of Garth and Betteredge, to me, show two things. One, a family servant of that level, and one who was trusted, became, as it were, a part of the family in a way. A woman, having lost her governess or hired companion, might be tempted to marry rather than hire a new one, it was so great a commitment, like adoption in a way, presuming, of course, the hired person did their job well. And yet it shows something else, too, particularly in the case of Betteredge, and that's that Collins had quite a liberal mind for his times. You're right in saying Betteredge was treated uncommonly well, like a confidant, a paid family counselor. Perhaps it's the same for Miss Garth. I'm not yet certain. Her loyalty to the girls is commendable, though. It shows how very strong an attachment she has to them and tot he family.

Ah....Frank. I want to love him. I do. He lacks motivation. But some of the best heroes in fiction yet wanted a little motivation in order to prepare them for the roles. An extreme case in point might be Eugene Wrayburn in Our Mutual Friend. He teetered on the edge of being a rogue and a cad, but... didn't. And all because of a woman. The right woman, who could shape him and motivate him. Of course I can't forget to credit his brush with death. I'm sure Headstone had something to do with his conversion.

Something to think about as we continue to follow (I hope) Frank's progress through the story.

V.r. wrote: "The examples of Garth and Betteredge, to me, show two things. One, a family servant of that level, and one who was trusted, became, as it were, a part of the family in a way. A woman, having lost her governess or hired companion, might be tempted to marry rather than hire a new one, it was so great a commitment..."

Though I do not really know all the details of just how servitude worked in Victorian times, and just what relations between masters and their servants were, but I would presume under normal circumstances that when a governess was no longer needed in a household she would either be let go or leave upon her own accord in order to seek a new position for herself. And if she had done her job particularly well than her former employers might recommend her to another house and help place her elsewhere.

I have to admit that I generally tend to find Heroes to be rather boring characters. I like a good anti-hero, or a true villain. But for me right now Frank is just kind of blah, he does not appear to have much personality and does not appear to have any aspirations in his life, and is just kind of there.

Mrs. Vanstone, presumably, still found Miss Garth useful. She's essential to the story, at all events. I don't much care for her, but what would the girls do without her?

I was thinking about the hero issue on the drive home. To be honest, I just like a good romance, and I'll latch onto the first potential love interest that arises. Frank is the only possibility, at present. I've confessed already to being a hopeless and incurable romantic. However, knowing Collins, it's likely this is a story about heroines, rather than heroes, and that's fine by me. I perhaps used the term too loosely. Frank is blah, at present. I'm hoping he improves; I do see potential in him. I would like to see him prove himself, but he very well may not. I have a suspicion that if Magdalen follows her aims through, she may outgrow him. It's hard to say. I find the speculation fun, but I'm not prepared to put any money down on anyone just yet.

V.r. wrote: "Mrs. Vanstone, presumably, still found Miss Garth useful. She's essential to the story, at all events. I don't much care for her, but what would the girls do without her?"

It seems to me that the situation between Mrs. Vanstone and Mrs. Garth is atypical. As there are many books of the Victorian Era that do present the position of governess in a much less idyllic light.

I have mixed feelings about Mrs. Garth as a character. Though she can come off as being rather stuffy, at the same time I do find her to be rather amusing. I enjoy her little commentary upon Magdalen and the play, even if I did not altogether agree I found it quite humorous.

I wonder of Collin's romanticizes servants a bit?

Ahh yeah I myself don't go in much for romance.

I think Collins had a socially liberal mind. At least it seems so. I've not read enough about him personally to really know for certain, but he does treat the serving class with a certain degree of consideration that is hard to find elsewhere. I remember in the Moonstone the concern he took over the servants feelings when they were searched for the gem. That might have been in Betteredge's POV, I can't remember, but I thought it was interesting.

He's also not really writing of aristocrats. I wonder if that makes a difference? Not sure.

I, too, think Miss Garth comes off as stuffy, and found the theatrical part really funny as well. that they all admitted to disparaging the lady who quit the performance... Magdalen has spirit, that's for certain. I'm afraid Frank didn't show his best side then, but it was funny that he admitted he had a part in it. Maybe he's immature.

I noted, in my notes, that it was interesting how they concentrated on his being so feminine in his appearance. It makes me wonder in what way Collins means to influence the reader in respect to that character.

I've enjoyed all of your comments. I've been so distracted from this book that it's been awhile since I started it. I felt like there was some interest in Frank on Norah's part. Can't remember exactly where I read this though. Love the way Collins draws us right in to the mystery. The man could certainly tell a story.

I'm a little bit late joining in the conversation as I was reading The Mill on the Floss for another group. Anyway, I plan to finish this book within the next week or so.

I'm really enjoying it so far! I like all the characters, especially Magdalen. I really love Collin's writing style, I can't explain it but it just captivates me. It pains me that he's so under-rated.

Martha wrote: "I've enjoyed all of your comments. I've been so distracted from this book that it's been awhile since I started it. I felt like there was some interest in Frank on Norah's part. Can't remember exac..."

He definitely does well reeling the audience in!

V.r. wrote: "I think Collins had a socially liberal mind. At least it seems so. I've not read enough about him personally to really know for certain, but he does treat the serving class with a certain degree of..."

That was one of my favourite parts too, Magdalen is so feisty!