Victorians! discussion

"Her heart was the heart of a true woman. It accepted the conviction which raised Norah higher in her love; it rejected the doubt which threatened to place Magdalene lower."

Some good news and some bad.

Who knew there would be so much to learn about wills in Collins? Wills and marriage and post-bags!

Chapter 7 why does Norah dislike Frank so? He was a childhood friend. Could it be there is something more there than meets the eye?

Chapter 8 loved this.....in answer to Mr Vanstone's asking where Frank was......Lurking," said Mr. Clare. "It is one of the intolerable peculiarities of louts that they always lurk. I haven't seen my lout this morning. It you meet with him anywhere, give him a kick, and say I want him."

Again, I say poor Frank....he does love Magdalen and she him. I do so love the Vanstones. They both seem so loving and understanding. I also believe that opposites do attract, so right now I think Frank and Magdalen look like a match.

Chapter 9 Yes, the marriage seems at least on one side to be possible following the terms set up by the Vanstones. Now to see what Mr Clare will say and do.

Chapter 10 horrible news....

Chapter 11 I did not realize that Mrs V was pregnant....missed that for sure....but such horrible happenings! Poor Norah and Madalen! How tragic and sad that the girls have lost both parents and a sibling in the space of a day.

Chapter 12 The parents were not married. I imagine this book at this point caused quite a stir among the readers. I wonder why they were not married and lived together for many years? This book gets better and better...

Chapter 13 What a story this is! The poor girls are left bereft of parents and now are paupers. I wonder what Michael Vanstone will do. I fear he will not forget his bitterness and his poor nieces will suffer. What a harsh law to make these girls illegitimate even after their parents married!

Isn't it though! I had no idea such a law would make a man's will null and void. That's nuts, I guess. I mean, it is, but what was the reason behind it? Collins said "marriage is, legally as well as socially, considered to be the most important event in his life" Presuming, of course, he has not already had children by her. Interesting, and sad. The timing here was what I think they call a black swan. Little things that add up to make one horrific catastrophe. Awful.

And I worry for Magdalen.

And what about Frank?

Gah!

I did think that was a superbly mysterious setup. I suppose a modern author would be encouraged to start later, not to waste all that time with the family dynamic when its significance wasn't worth the space (200pp?) But that's why I love classic literature. It tells a tale, not just a story, but a farrer (?) reaching arc than most authors attempt these days. Perhaps readers don't have the attention spans to handle them? I hope that's not true.

This is why Collins is my favorite Victorian author. He writes plainly in a sense, but always manages to get in a wallop of a story. I have to say he has masterfully shown us the quality of all the characters thus far. There is not a one the reader does not admire for their strength, intelligence, friendship, loyalty, and of course loving relationships.

Perhaps now that we have met the very best in this story we will start to meet the very worst and I fear Michael may fall into that category. This story is hard to put down.

It is. Unfortunately I have a lot of reading at the moment, but I'm trying to get through the rest of it (which I'll do this week) so I can concentrate on No Name. It's just such a great story, great writing, great Victorian era tidbits, and so well layered. I love that! I worry for Magdalen. She has a dark streak and it could save her or destroy her. And what about Frank? Oh goodness.

I think perhaps they are both tougher than we think right now. I foresee lots of confrontation between Uncle Michael and Magdalen.

I certainly hope so. What an interesting story that would make. Particularly if she's savvy, which I think she is. She seems to know her way around Capt. Wragge. So far, at any rate.

I'm looking forward to the Uncle Michael and Magdalen confrontation very much. About Collins taking so much time developing the Vanstone family, the Secret wouldn't have been near as shocking or heartbreaking if Collins hadn't made us connect so much with the characters. This book is definitely hard to put down! It's also making me appreciate Wilkie Collins' writing even more than I did before.

Armadale was also recommended to me. I think I'm going to read it next. The more I read of Collins, the more I, too, want to read. I want to read more George Meredith as well, but with him, you never know what kind of ending you're going to get. It raises the tension, but when it ends badly it sort of spoils all the fun. Anyway, yes, I'm finding this a lot of fun to read. And for the size of the book, it's reading fairly quickly.

Marialyce wrote: "Chapter 7 why does Norah dislike Frank so? He was a childhood friend. Could it be there is something more there than meets the eye?

Chapter 8 loved this.....in answer to Mr Vanstone's asking where..."


I myself wondered about Norah's reaction to Frank. My first thought was the possibility that Norah herself might have feelings for Frank. Or is she just genuinely concerned about what would become of Magdalen if she entered into a relationship with such a man. Or does she know something that no one else knows concerning Frank?

I have to admit with the mystery of the "family affair" and Magdalen's strange looks the prospects that her and Frank might be related had crossed my mind, though I do not know how Norah could know such a thing.


Marialyce wrote:Again, I say poor Frank....he does love Magdalen and she him. I do so love the Vanstones. They both seem so loving and understanding. I also believe that opposites do attract, so right now I think Frank and Magdalen look like a match.

I have to admit I question just how much Frank truly does love Magdalen. I found his behavior a bit questionable when after they were caught kissing Magdalen declared she would speak to her farther and she asked Frank to remain to see what her father had to say, but at the first opportunity he slinked away and made his escape. That is not very gentlemanly behavior.

A marriage to her would prove profitable to him, as it would give him means without his having to worry about making a way for himself in life and he may enjoy a flirtation with a pretty girl who throws herself upon him, but I am not convinced that his love is as genuine or true as her own.

I had really wanted to like Magdalen but I have to admit the more story progresses I am finding her growing dislikable.

I found these lines interesting and wonder if they are meant as foreshadow of something ominous about Frank:

Magdalen lingered a little on the lawn, to feel all the happiness of her new sensations—then turned away toward the shrubbery to enjoy the higher luxury of communicating them. The dog followed her. She whistled, and clapped her hands. "Find him!" she said, with beaming eyes. "Find Frank!" Snap scampered into the shrubbery, with a bloodthirsty snarl at starting. Perhaps he had mistaken his young mistress and considered himself her emissary in search of a rat?

Ooooh. I missed that. Hmmmm. I wonder as well. Very interesting. I shall keep my eyes open for further developments re Frank. Or, as my copy calls him in one instance 'Farnk'.

I too, originally thought that Norah might have feelings for Frank, and thats why she objected so thoroughly. By the close of this section, however, I became convinced that while Magdalen has the ability to mimic everyone, it is Norah who truly has the ability to see to the core of someone. I think she knows that Frank is a bad egg. He may truly love Magdalen, but only in his capacity for love, which is probably love that is convenient, passionate, and then quickly worn away. I dont think he is PURPOSELY marrying her for her fortune, but I do think he is still counting on it.

I do love Magdalen, so impetuous, I love the energy she brings to the story, but I do think that Norah is more wise and passionate than she gets credit for.

I really like Mr. Clare, I feel that his voice is often Wilkie Collins interjecting straight into the story.

As for Mrs. Vanstone, I understood that he wanted us to think that she was pregnant, but I had practically forgotten considering he rarely mentioned it in regards to the daughters/their concern for their mother. I originally thought that Mr. Wragge might have been Mrs. Vanstone's first husband, because I noticed a similar trend of that sort in Collins' other works (this is my fourth or fifth Collins in a row, he's great). But what happened was so much more astonishing.

Poor girls. Poor Garth. At least they have Mrs. Garth there, strict as she may be, I think she is like glue to the family.

I do think Frank is purposely marrying Magdalen for her fortune. It's clear he does not want to work for a living. I think Norah, being older and wiser, can see what a self-centered, lazy fellow Frank is.
Interesting guess about the identity of Wragge. I hadn't thought of it.
I like both Norah and Magdalen also and for the same reasons as Becky. They remind me of the sisters in Sense and Sensibility - the older one more cautious and circumspect, the younger impetuous and with stars in her eyes.

That's an intriguing comparison. I hadn't thought of that. I'm wondering what Nora's story will be.

I'm hoping Frank plays a bigger part here and we find out what his true motives are. Personally I think he's just unmotivated and lazy. It's entirely possible, though, that Magdalen's fortune was an attractive alternative to making his own way in the world. I hope we find out for sure, though.

I should clarify. I dont think Frank is MALICIOUSLY going after Magdalen. I honestly think he is too lazy, insipid, and stupid to have a plan that required seduction. I do think that he is counting on her money though. More like "Oh well this happened, thats nice, I guess I can marry money." Kind of like every job has been like "Oh, they handed me a job? Thats nice. I guess I can try it."

I've never gotten around to reading Sense and Sensibility (whoops), I'll have to keep the comparison in mind when I read it.

I see. Yes, that's my feeling, too. Sense and Sensibility is wonderful. I love Austen.

Oh, Becky....you are absolutely right, it seems. Oh, that Frank!

I'm so behind on my reading but I'm going to contribute anyway! Wow, I knew Magdalen and Norah were illegitimate from reading the blurb but I had NO idea that Mr and Mrs Vanstone hadn't been married the ENTIRE time! That's one of the reasons I love Wilkie Collins; he always surprises me!

I wonder why Norah doesn't like Frank too. To be honest, there's something about him I don't trust either.

Miss Garth, what strength and loyalty she's displayed; one can't help but admire her.

The illegitimacy laws, how absolutely horrible :( This is why I like Victorian authors such as Collins and George Eliot for exposing the hypocrisy in those times.

V.r. wrote: "Isn't it though! I had no idea such a law would make a man's will null and void. That's nuts, I guess."

Agreed!

I agree. And Collins does it so well. He explains it in such a way it's almost as if he knew, a hundred years later, people would be reading it who wouldn't know all the laws and the means by which things are done. He's such a great source for that kind of information and he never talks over his readers' heads. And he's clever. There were many times I thought he was sort of giving false clues. So it's hard to know what it is he's going to end up telling us. I think that's what makes him such a great mystery writer.

Rowena wrote: "V.r. wrote: "Isn't it though! I had no idea such a law would make a man's will null and void. That's nuts, I guess."

In one way it makes sense to null and void a will upon marriage. What if the person died before making a new will - the old will would not reflect the changes in status.
One good thing today is that in most states it is illegal to disinherit a spouse. They are entitled to 1/3 of the estate regardless of what the will states. This is important since frequently people will simply never get around to changing their will after remarriage.

You would think, though, that the law would divide his will as it would have done had he died without a will at all. It would have been divided half to his wife and half to his children. And I think they did mention something about how Noel shouldn't have been able to completely disinherit her. But then maybe that law came later. I can't remember.

But then, to say what should or should not be in the Victorian era is a waste of time. So many of those laws were downright unfair, particularly as they dealt with women and most particularly in the early half of the century.

Makes for great fiction, though. :)

V.r. wrote: "You would think, though, that the law would divide his will as it would have done had he died without a will at all. It would have been divided half to his wife and half to his children. And I thin..."

In this case it was the illegitimacy that barred them from inheriting. If they had not been, I think they would have received at least something. Unfair but that was the fate of those out of wedlock then.
I suspect that is why Wilke Collins wrote this novel. He had children out of wedlock and what better way to showcase the discrimination they would receive in life than by a riveting novel.
It seems a lot of Victorian writers had relationships outside of or in place of marriage. Hmmm, interesting.