You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

This thread is for any random chat about Peony in Love.

There is no separate thread for spoilers this month so please warn people if your comment contains spoilers

***SPOILER ALERT**** - that'll probably do it :P

I loved this book! I'm looking forward to following this discussion!

Hi Allison, I am glad you enjoyed Peony in Love

I've always been fascinated by China and read quite a lot of Chinese-related fiction in the last 18 months, including Lisa See's Snowflower.

I'm about a third of the way through Peony and enjoying it. It is fascinating, especially now it's in the second phase, but I find the faux naive voice of Peony a little irritating at times.

My only concern is the message that reading is a dangerous activity for women!

I'm more than half way through, and I'm enjoying what I'm learning about Chinese history and beliefs... but that's the problem: it's too much like a factual book, rather than a novel, especially as the plot (so far, at least) is far too predictable

I have to say I had a bit of the same feeling. I was not sure if it was because I do not have a huge background in Chinese history or perhaps the author felt she needed to explain a lot more for exactly that reaseon. Many readers, like myself, are not that familiar with Chinese history and beliefs.

** CONTAINS SPOILERS **



I've finished it and my main impressions remain the same, i.e. that it's an interesting story, with a clever structure (weaving the legend with the "real" story) but too didactic in the way it fills readers in on the historical detail of customs and beliefs. Whilst I found all that interesting, I think it could have been presented more subtly (or else with footnotes).

On the plus side, the second two thirds wasn't quite as predictable as the first third and the message about reading being bad for females was finally overturned - sort of.

There were incongruous bits that sounded too modern and that a good editor should have picked up on as they were needlessly distracting: some of the descriptions of the empowering of women; lovesickness often sounded too much like a modern analysis of anorexia - explicitly when Ze says "I stopped eating, and for once I had total control over my destiny", and the ghastly line stolen from a budget sci fi movie "We asked the netherworld bureaucrats and received one time return-to-earth permits".

I also found the "clouds and rain" threesome/intimacy by proxy, a rather disquieting concept, though I realise it was meant to be a beautiful coming together, and it rather tainted the rest of the story for me.

So overall, interesting, but for me, a frustrating and disappointing read, albeit quite educational. I'll be interested to see what others make of it.

I bought this book yesterday but i'm in the middle of quite a long book at the moment and then have another one i've got to read next but will then get to this one. I loved the snowflower and the fan book of hers so am looking forward to this one although it seems from what you're all saying it's not as good.

Hi CFSR, Did you like Snowflower better than Peony in Love? I have not read Snowflower but have it on my TBR list.

Yes, I preferred Snowflower. It managed to fill the reader in on the relevant cultural practices in a more natural way, and the narrator was more plausible (to me). Mind you, that had one or two "quirks" that a good editor should have picked up/out.

I didn't really like Snowflower - I don't think i liked the character very much. I found Peony in Love enchanting. I really liked the way that real life mirrors ghost life so completely - so that everything that is believed in the real world is true in the next.

That's interesting Stephanie, most people prefer Snow Flower so I was a little unsure about Peony in Love. I'm planning on starting it tonight :)

I do find that my reaction to books is almost wholly goverened by the mood I'm in when I read them, though, so if I was stuck on a train or had a cold when I read Snowflower I will forget that and just remember that I didn't like the book!

I am a little under 1/2 way through the book right now and I am still not sure what to think. Perhaps I am just too jaded in life, but I think that Peony's naievity (sp?) and innocence is what killed her, not her reading. This book is really a downer for me for some reason.

CSFR - I agree with you that Peony is kind of irritating. I am having a hard time really feeling for her, since she is the idiot who let herself die, all for some boy she'll never see again. Of course, that little twist of who the boy actually is was so obvious to me from the get go. I am hoping the plot actually starts going some where beyond her moping for Ren.

I am really feeling for her mother though. She seems hard and cold in the beginning but during the funeral scenes, my little cynical heart shattered for a minute or two while reading that. It's probably because I'm a mom, but I felt for her, as the idea of burying your own child strikes fear and sadness into my heart.

Hi Heather, Peony's mother is a very interesting character. More details of her life are revealed later in the book that put a different light on her rather hard and cold demeanor. I also like the grandmother that Peony met in the afterlife.

Ah Donna, Now that I have finished it, I have to agree with you about her mother, as well as her grandmother. I am decently okay with the ending and I am happy that both her and Ze had peace in the end. Overall, however, I did not really enjoy reading this. I should have known better than pick up another Lisa See. I didn't much enjoy Snow Flower either.

I thought that the mother was the most interesting character in the book, someone who tried the new way but went back to the old under stress. I read her as trying to protect her daughter but also being desparate to protect herself. And I was fascinated by the fact that footbinding was a way to relative freedom for Ren's third wife.

Ditto to all of the above - especially the last sentence, which I'd sort of noticed, but not consciously registered till Stephanie made it explicit.

i started this book last night. i've read about 70 pages and so far I am liking it. I love Snow Flower but I don't feel that I'm as into this one as I was to that one. The foot binding parts always enthrall me. I can't imagine ever wanting that done or to do it to anyone! Does anyone know if people ever still bind their daughter's feet? I can't believe that they do but you never know in today's world.

I think it was banned in China and remains banned today, but it wasn't that long ago. I think chairman mao banned it. There was a woman alive recently that still had her feet bound. She was really old though.

i just can't imagine the excruciating pain or how the hell you walk ever afterwards?!

Alice, I totally agree. There was a part where Peony and her mother were helping re-bind a family member's feet because they had not been done correctly the first time, and I actually just skimmed the page, because I couldn't take it!

I got this from Wikipedia:

In 1911, after the fall of the Qing Dynasty, the new Republic of China government banned foot binding; women were told to unwrap their feet lest they be killed. Some women's feet grew 1/2 - 1 inch after the unwrapping, though some found the new growth process extremely painful and emotionally and culturally devastating. Societies developed to support the abolition of footbinding, with contractual agreements between families promising their infant son in marriage to an infant daughter that would not have her feet bound. When the Communists took power in 1949, they maintained the strict prohibition on footbinding, which is still in effect today.

Apparently, there are still women who are alive who have bound feet as Jenny said. I looked up foot binding on google image search and there is a woman on there who looks to be in her 80s who has bound feet. ouch.

I suppose there are worse things in this world than that though. I mean, look at the women in the 1800s who had to wear corsets so their waists were like 10 inches. And that was in adulthood, and willingly!

And we still have a culture of mutilation for the sake of beauty, don't we? There must be a lot of women who go through a lot of pain with repeated breast implants, for instance. Nose jobs, eye lifts, tummy tucks.... even waxing ain't a walk in the park. I might throw up mt hands in horror at the idea of footbinding, but I've got an awful lot of shoes in my wardrobe that make my feet and calves ache for a couple of days after wearing them....

Even when we don't cause ourselves pain, we still remodel parts of our body to appear more attractive/socially acceptable - dyed hair, shaped eyebrows, bleached teeth, push up bras, scary pants..... (I wasn't just describing myself, btw!)

You're right stephanie especially with all the cosmetic surgery people go through today.

One extra angle with foot binding compared with many cosmetic procedures and fashions is that it put an additional physical constraint on the women. Yes, they learned to walk, but they'd struggle to run away, or even go far when they were out.

This is quite a good article on foot binding

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

It says that:

Some scholars say footbinding deepened female subjugation by making women more dependent on their men folk, restricting their movements and enforcing their chastity, since women with bound feet were physically incapable of venturing far from their homes.

Right, but at the same time, this was done to women from "good quality" families. Basicly, this means that they didn't have to go out and do things away from home. Yes, it was imprisonment, but where did they ahve to go? I know this sounds like I am advocating foot binding (so not), but this was also something that was done by women to women(girls). Yes, it did make women more dependent on their men, but at the same time, it also allowed them to pursue other things.

Look at the writing club that Peony "visits". They all had their feet bound and yet they were able to live full lives and rich lives. Also, to go back to one of Stephanie's statements, for some, foot binding was a way to greater freed, Ren's 3rd wife for example. Without her feet having been bound, she probably would have starved to death, as her father didn't want a 3rd girl in the family. Having her feet bound allowed her not only to live, but to also be able to learn to read and write, something her sisters never were able to do.

Yes, I think foot binding must be horrid, but at the same time, it was done for a long while, so it must have served some purpose.

one last thing - I never thought about foot binding in a sexual way until Peony in Love. I know the 3 way ghosty stuff was weird, but did anyone else think that the um, "use" of the "golden lily" for a sexual purpose was just bizzare?

one last thing - I never thought about foot binding in a sexual way until Peony in Love.

I've read many references to the sexual attraction of bound feet - especially the smell (urgh). That may (or may not) include Lisa See's other book, Snowflower, which, like Peony, has footbinding as a way to a better life for an impoverished girl.

I think it was the smell part that so confused me. Doesn't it smell of just nasty? Or am I wrong?

In the descriptions I've read it sounds as if there was crusty pus!

That's just foul.

Bleurgh!!

ewwww! I think they scented them though didn't they? I'm sure there were references in the book about Peony scenting her feet.

I have finished the book now and I think I felt that Lisa See had tried to fit in too many facts and information about all the rituals etc (very superstitious). I most enjoyed the parts where Peony's mother dies and they meet up and also when Ren marries his third wife. These were a lot more story bits rather than fact building!

I think because I know so little about the culture, I found the factual aspect of the narrative engaging and enjoyable. But I can see that if you already know a bit about it, it would be dull!

I did get fed up with the constant references to 'clouds and rain' which I found a little fey. It also kept making me laugh, because I train creativity and the best way I have found (well, stolen from Chuck Dymer) to explain the difference between concepts and ideas is to see concepts as clouds and ideas as rain. (Clouds are full of good stuff but no use if you're thirsty. Rain will solve your immediate problem but a cloud has a lot more possibilities.) So whenever someone was making clouds and rain with their husband I caught myself thinking, 'what on earth are they doing discussing ideas and concepts? I thought women weren't supposed to participate in intellectual life'....

Stephanie, I agree about learning the facts as the story went on. I like when I can learn about something while I'm reading a good story.

Stephanie - Haha! Clouds and rain!

Btw, I'm still not quite sure how that concept got intertwined with the acts of the bedroom. How on earth does a saying like that manage to be formulated in response to what is going on?

Just starting this one now! I have some catching up to do .....

My recently acquired knowledge of ancient Chinese customs came in very handy last evening as I was watching the TV show “Numbers”. I am not sure if everyone is familiar with it – I don’t know if it is shown in England – but it is basically a contemporary cop show about 2 brothers, one an FBI (MI 5) agent and the other a math genius. They work together to solve crimes in the Los Angeles, California area.

Last night’s episode was about girls disappearing from Chinatown. There was a scene in a cemetery and I turned to my husband and said “you know there were Chinese practices which involved marriages after death, especially if the first son of the family died without having married”. A few minutes latter the crime was solved – the missing girls were being murdered and then buried with unmarried men from very traditional Chinese families!

Just goes to show – you never know when something you read will come in handy.

Wow- pretty cool, Donna. That show seems interesting. I've been meaning to catch it one of these days. When is it on?

I'm a little more than halfway through the book. I like it so far. I'm really enjoying learning about Chinese customs and beliefs but I do think the plot is not as interesting as Snow Flower and the Secret Fan. It's good though.

Hi Jaime, Numbers is on Friday nights at 10 EST. The earlier seasons, which were better in my opinion, are available on Netflix.

Thanks, Donna! I'll have to check them out!

I'm just under half way. I'm enjoying it! I think I prefered Snow Flower but I'm not really sure why at the moment. I think the chinese beliefs and customs are fascinating. Lisa See really knows her stuff!

I'm sure numbers is on tv in the uk somewhere. Im sure I've seen it advertised.