Rothfussians discussion

Okay so I finsished the book - did the endin bother anyone else but me? I like books in a series - and am fine with "some" loose ends to go into the next book with - but it seemed to stop at a place that did not give me much "closure".

Since this is a Rothfussian group I'm sure everyone will disagree with me but it is how I feel.
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Wife of fantasy author: Michael J. Sullivan
The Crown Conspiracy (Oct 2008) | Avempartha (April 2009)
Reviews: Fantasy Book Critic | Odysssey | Amazon | MidWest Book Review | Huntress Reviews

I think your right in that NOTW ended with more loose ends than a lot of books do. I don't mind it though. I think it just makes it more exciting to see what will happen in the next book. I kind of reminds me of the way that Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire ended with everything up in the air.

Robin wrote: "Okay so I finsished the book - did the endin bother anyone else but me?"

I think one problem is that early printings didn't advertise in large letters that it was a series -- I didn't realize it right away myself. I am glad I saw "Book 1" before I reached the ending, but I know some didn't!

I reeeeeally struggle with solid endings, so I'm both sympathetic and picky about them. NOTW's ending didn't leave me hanging as much because of -- this thread has a spoiler warning, right?! -- because of Bast's revealing tirade with Chronicler. Suddenly we got a whole 'nother side of that character and what he's doing, and that shift in views was enough to create a break for me.

The demon incident at the end was both necessary and harmful; necessary because it provides a hook and a promise -- "Look, this isn't just a series of flashback, there's stuff still happening, there WILL be present-day action in upcoming books" -- and harmful because it felt like a hook. And because I got a bit angry at Kvothe as I read it it; I know the guy has been everywhere and done everything and is very accomplished, but when your pet fae starts squawking, it's good to pay attention. And then bad stuff happened and I felt vindicated. /laugh/

The ending didn't really get me to want to read the next book- the whole novel did. I really loved the whole thing so it wasn't the end that brought me to want to read the rest, as to me it was just another interesting side to Bast. (Who a friend and I are currently arguing over if he is evil or not (I say no!) as well as how to pronounce his name (is the "a" an "ah" sound or more like the a in "at"?).)

Who a friend and I are currently arguing over if he is evil or not (I say no!) as well as how to pronounce his name (is the "a" an "ah" sound or more like the a in "at"?).

Rothfuss pronounces his name with a midwestern "a," as in "at."

Bast, evil or not? Hmm. Maybe we'll see, "Bast: Friend or Foe?" buttons for the release of WMF? :)

I don't think Bast is evil, just chaotic. I think he loves his friends, and hates his enemies.

I don't think Bast can be labeled with human terms such as evil. Bast himself says quite a few times that the Chronicler doesn't have a clue about him. My favorite bit that illustrates that was when they were initially speaking of the Cthaen, where he slams his hand down on table, and beer splashes out onto it. Then, explaining to the Chronicler that he knows less than nothing about fae, he slaps his hand down, you hear the wood crack, the spill takes the form of a raven and takes wing, then he makes a tearing motion and rips it in half in front of what I'm certain is a dumbfounded Chronicler. "Good" and "Evil" are concepts that apply to humans, and Bast is MOST definitely NOT human! So it would be sort of meaningless the assign him mores that aren't relevent to him at all.

I don't buy that argument. Good and evil are applicable to anyone capable of perceiving and making value judgments about abstract things, and Bast easily fits into that category.

The examples you give detail how complex the 'real' world may be (as understood through fae), and how much of its secrets people of fae understand and grapple with--Secrets people of the human realm may never hope to comprehend. But still, Bast and Felurian are clearly human enough (or at least they value humanity, and want to be).

I think you negate your own argument using those two as examples. "Three ways I own you. That makes you wholy mine. An instrument of my desire. You will do as I say ... Bast took hold of his shoulder and held him fast. "Hear my words manling," he hissed. "Do not mistake me for my mask. You see light dappling on the water and forget the deep cold dark beneath. Listen. You cannot hurt me. You cannot run and hide. In this I will not be defied. .... You are not wise enough to fear me as I should be feared. You do not know the first note of the music that moves me."

If I could have I would have put in italics the comment of "do not mistake me for my mask" and "You don't understand the first note of the music that moves me."

Bast himself says he is wearing a mask. He may be aware of human mores, and what humans consider good and bad, but they aren't HIS mores. Likewise Felurian - apparently Kvothe is the FIRST man to leave her side willingly, alive and mind intact. Why? So he can go in to the world and tell of Felurian, greatest of all lovers, and sing his song he's holding hostage. Do you think if he gave her the song while he was there that she would have let him go willingly? No, I think not. The Fae may look like us at times, they may sound like us at times, but as Bast says, they are moving to an entirely different set of music.
One further example: Bast arranges for 2 soldiers to rob the Inn. He is appalled when his plan (apparently for Kvothe to kick their asses and remember whom he was) goes awry, and what does he do? He finds these two soldiers, and sings a children's song as a method of whom he will kill first. (Please don't say Oh, but he let them go! -- )

They may be wearing masks to fit into the human world. But they are not human, and do not have by definition humanities values. They may know what they are; and follow them when it suites them (such as Bast being an apprentice Inn Keeper. Don't you think that must gall him to his bones; a prince among the Fae, a kitchen boy here in our world?" And while both Bast and Felurian may value humanity - they value it for different reasons, and they certainly don't want to be human.

@ Bast's mask: Based on what you quoted, he seems to be saying he's more powerful than he seems. That's your reading as well, correct? Why would that mean that the mores of good and evil don't apply to him? It seems that you're going for moral relativity, but, well, we'll talk about that if that's indeed your argument. Right now I'm not seeing the connection between your arguments and your conclusion.

@ italics: Click 'reply' under someones post, and the beginning of their posts will be auto-quoted for you in italics. Look at that to see how the tags are applied.

@ Felurian: Do you remember when she was discussing the gift she was going to give Kvothe? She described how she'd give a different gift, depending on the person? What do you make of that? It's as if she knew the mechanics of story telling. I suspect others have left her alive and well before. I assume...Well, I assume a lot about Felurian. That would be for a different thread.

@ origin of Fae: There was a war between namers and shapers, or something like that--between those who would respect the nature of reality, and those who would bend it to their will. Fae is very much a product of those who would bend it to their will, and I understand they were exiled there, and are still free to bend reality itself. And somehow this knowledge in fae is still applicable to the "real" world, as Bast demonstrates with his magic. The point I'm making is that many would argue that the 'real' world is the mask, and the true, real world is the world of naming, shaping, and fae. Bast and Felurian just relate to it on a more intuitive and poetic level (right brain as well as just left brain) . So the core difference between Fae and humans can't be so great, no matter the power difference, since the theory is they basically started out the same.

I'd also bring up Fae's crazy insane political structure--Why does such a thing exist? I'd argue that in the absence of physical laws to keep people on the same page, social norms must take their place--And note that social norms are based on person-to-person understanding and interactions, which can be highly varied and nuanced, but if that's all you have to keep grounded to reality, then so be it. This is not unlike what can happen in our world, where niche social norms supersede common sense and reality in some circles.

@ Bast's actions: Humans essentially have two sources of moral codes: What they believe the public perception of what is right is, vs. Their own perception of what is right is. Bast clearly has his own perception of what his right. This is basically just existentialism, and is nothing so out of the ordinary. Or do you disagree that Bast himself doesn't think certain things are good, and certain things are bad? I see you're examples of the 'mask,' but those are of him saying "I'm pretending to be benign for your benefit, so show me some damn respect."

If you're saying that he nor Felurian can be bothered to care about what human society thinks is right and wrong (good and evil), then I'd counter that that's not highly unusual at all. I'm the same way, frankly, and so are a lot of people. And do I have the power to break rules as I please? Within certain limitations, yes. Some would argue our democracy depends on it.

This is basically a question of ontology, epistemology, and ethics. The first two are studies of (1) what exists, and (2) how can we know or interact with what exists. That's pretty standard, even though fae does turn a lot of this on its head. Ethics, on the other hand, is totally made up and is based very much on the eyes of beholders. Books like Blindsight deal with advanced life that are beyond beholding, as it were, but Bast (and Felurian) is clearly an emotional being that's not one of those.

I honestly always took Bast for a Nuetral/Chaotic Nuetral Character.

Every character has to have an alignment, the catagories of Good/Bad are far too vague to encase such a character though. No fae, from any book could be described as simply good or bad, not even freakin' Tinkerbell.

I think Bast is out for himself. I dont necessarily consider that bad. Some of the greatest Anti-Heroes of literature are spawned from such a character "flaw." I think Bast likes Kote plenty, but he liked him better when he had more to offer him. So in self-interest is trying to restore such a thing. From what I can tell, Bast does a lot in self-interest. Why? Thats completely unknown, we've probably got less than 100 pgs of dialog on his character. But in RPG world sense, he seems a classic fae, generally caught up in some mischeif and looking to score something sweet in the end whether rightfully deserved or not.


On another note, I would disagree that Good and Evil are concepts that apply solely to humans in the vast creation of fantasy literature. I would say they are concepts that are understood by all mindful creatures, but the concepts of what is wrong or right/ good or bad is really just an opinion. Which makes the matter more illusive to us (as humans) in creatures we have difficulty describing or undestanding.

I considered what Bast said to be more culturally and physically applicable versus the nature of ethically conceptual.

@ concepts understood by "mindful creatures."...That's a very simple and effective way of putting it. I feel stupid for my text wall.

@ Neutral/Chaotic:
I think the capacity for empathy towards strangers is what shifts Bast towards good rather bad. Simple question: Would he have helped Kvothe fight the Scrael at the beginning of NOTW?...Actualy, good point, we have no idea. I mean he would have, but would he have helped because he cared about the town, or because he would stand beside his friend no matter what? I agree with you about Neutral Chaotic, especially since JoeCrash pointed out that Bast probably sees all humans aside from Kvothe as insignificant ants to play with or step on (Not exactly the argument he was making, but I agree Bast considers himself in a different category than normal people).

But I do think Bast has genuine affection for Kvothe, as did Felurian. That's why I believe the one "law" the Fae abide by are interpersonal relationships. That fits their actions so far, right? With Felurian caring for Kvothe after the Cthaeh incident, and Bast still hanging out with his has-been-hero.

Off topic: I think Bast was banished from certain places, which is why he's hanging out in the human realm.... And all this Bast talk has reminded me of a bunch of old theories. Was one of them that Bast was Kvothe's and Felurian's son, thanks to weird Fae-time stuff?

Sanjiv wrote: "@ concepts understood by "mindful creatures."...That's a very simple and effective way of putting it. I feel stupid for my text wall.

@ Neutral/Chaotic:
I think the capacity for empathy towards st..."

That's a very interesting off topic discussion Sanjiv. Perhaps "Reshi" means father?

@ Sanjiv...I sort of got that impression from Bast as well in the little that we interacted with him. (That he was sort of an outcast of fae) Not to mention, that would really fit with Kvothe.

And yes, I totally remember that theory about Felurian and Kvothe being Bast's parents...mostly because it was super hilarious though. That would be awesome if that turned out to be true, I would laugh forever!

And @ Scans...I thought it was name for teacher, but it could totally mean father.

I love this idea, it would be rockin' though I doubt it really is true. I also read theory...or really more of a creepy critique, where Bast and Kvothe are gay together...which I have to admit, was pretty well supported. It might be in the goodreads reviews...if you're interested in that sort of humor. :D

@ gayness: Actually, a lot of evidence suggests that western males are lot less touchy feel-ey than males in other parts of the world, and as someone who's grown up in West Africa and India, I'll say that Bast's and Kvothe's relationship didn't strike me as especially intimate.

Though I guess now we have something else to add to the 'list of unanswered questions.' Given that they're both essentially fae, who knows what the hell they've done, or who they've done it to.

@ Kvothe being fae:

First, yes, (1) I know I'm responding to what I just wrote, and (2) I know 'fae' sounds like 'gay. Move past that. The reason I say Kvothe is fae because of his cultural immersion with Felurian, and how he seemed to be still of the fae world, even after he returned. If you read the sections when he returns from fae, I think that explains a lot behind why fae people, including Bast, are the way they are, and behave the way they behave.

LOL! I never really thought about them being gay until I read that review. But it was pretty funny. I know what you mean about western culture having such a taboo. My old man's best friend is french...and honestly, he is much more open and friendly in comparison to a lot of his other friends. He never leaves without saying he loves us and giving us hugs and all that. But...I really found the review to be well supported which was why I even mentioned it. Plus...Pat is a westerner LOL

Gods...that would just be the worst plot twist ever...

Though I did read that Kvothe turns into a lesbian unicorn at the end....

All kidding aside, I dont think Bast and Kvothe are gay together. In asian culture they believed that relationship from Teacher to Student was second only to that of Mother and Child. I really took it to be an extension of that when I read the novels, though Bast being Kvothe's son could be supported this way also.

Just finished the name of the wind, It was amazing. Made me smile, laugh, and cry. I know that the trilogy is just about Kvothe telling the story of his history. Does anyone think that there will be a continuation in the present with the war and present day Kvothe?

Not sure - but I do think Pat will stick with this world and at least do one more set in it or maybe a few stand alones.

On his blog recently he mentioned wanting to do something more urban fantasy next though.

I think it would be interesting for him to evolve the four corners into an urban world. But I think a lot of things would be interesting - so really thats not saying a lot.