Rothfussians discussion

Thistlepong wrote: "I don't think there's much evidence at all for a more than mundane, probably Vintic, civil war or rebellion. I'll admit the scrael are a mystery, but alone they're not enough to suggest a Faen incursion. And we know Kvothe meets up with Bast before whatever he did sent him into hiding."


obviously, I implied a lot, but for the sake of argument debunk my three points. I know you said the scrael are a mystery but your comment about bast being met before unknown event does not preclude that point in the least. The point I'm making is there is a whole lot to fit into this story. there are no doubt many scenerios that could lead us to the frame world. to clarify one point though, Im not saying that the war is necesarrily between the fae and mortal kin. what im suggesting is that this war is so big that none are truely outsiders fae or man a like. though there is the two kings of vint situation more or less. I would point out that no obvious tention other that what we assume must be there has been implied. All the attacks against maer were of a magical and nature. so I dont think we can diffentively claim it to be simple a mortal war without some actual ground work building up to it.


So having rambled for a bit, I'll return the discussion to whoever might be interested in bringing there ideas to the table.

@ Billy - I have actually considered your point quite a bit myself. It seems likely Pat will leave a few loose ends. For purposes of creating realism and also to grab up for other stories. (hopefully) I've heard him say a few times no story ever has all the ends tied up (paraphrase) so that has left me to think he probably wont clear up EVERYTHING. Probably much to my dismay. LOL

Also @Ben & Thistle - even if it were a Vintic civil war, which I agree seems highly likely, a civil war and general unrest in the area could be a problem if it were effecting the Eld, which we know for certain has a usable pathway to Fae.
Imagine simply, if the Eld were to be cut down for seige weaponery or something along those lines. That would have an inherent effect on the doorway there, dont you think?

Speculative, but I am actually wondering what sort of reprucussions something like that would have.

You know, obviously, most of all our speculation is frivolous albeit entertaining.
Having said that let us speculate on events in the frame, for a sec...

At this point in the story we have three major events. Two of which were faen creatures that IMO are searching for Kvothe. With that we see a seemingly violent intention towards the group whcih Kote is apart of. Sooooo, why would the fae be coming for him... Afterall mortals are rarely a true concern of the faen creatures. So why unless this war gave them a reason to care? And why come for Kvothe for malicious reasons?

Benjamin wrote: "You know, obviously, most of all our speculation is frivolous albeit entertaining.
Having said that let us speculate on events in the frame, for a sec...

At this point in the story we have three m..."

You're assuming they've come for Kote. We only know of one location in the current time period, and there are faen in this one. We don't know if they're appearing everywhere.

Although, I see your point and agree with you. Seems like their after K.

you know your right I am taking liberties making that statement. The only rebutle I can think of is Chronicler just showed up to this place. He is our only outside source. In NOTW in the very beginning he has little to no familarity with the scrael. He does seem to know about the fae and there aversion to iron. Anyway, I think Chronicler would have mentioned it if these attacks were happening everywhere.

I realize after I type these things that perhaps I just weakened my creation warII arguement... Still, their attacking the inn impliess some involvemnt with the faen realm. So the question is on what scale.

Ah! Didn't think of that, yeah, he seemed pretty shocked and has been travelling around a bit. I wonder how they know to target K?

Is it totally weird that since reading WMF I've always kinda considered the scrael something shaped? Maybe to specifically do something.

Never thought up what that specific thing could be, until now...maybe they are designed to hunt him down?

Yah...wild speculation...go me!

Amber wrote: "Is it totally weird that since reading WMF I've always kinda considered the scrael something shaped? Maybe to specifically do something.

Never thought up what that specific thing could be, until ..."

I actually had the same thought when I read that. They attack in a swarm. He calls them demons. Is this just a way to describe them as I would describe a bumble bee (I hate them that much) or are they literally a demon?
The children's song he sings about them still gives me the chills. "Let me tell you what to do. Dig a pit that's ten by two. Ash and elm and rowan too." Do we ever see the rest of that song anywhere? I have forgotten.

I'm pretty sure Demon's almost always reference Fae as that is what the commonfolk see them as.

Partially due to the tehlin religion.

Also we don't necessarily see that song, but this is almost exactly what is done during the story of Menda and Encanis. (Told by Trapis) Encanis is burned in such a pit.

You know what else is weird... The body snatcher. Bast says the sith or maybe it was the singer's completely wipe them out. Where did it come from then.


I don't know. There is just way to much going on in the frame that involves faen creatures for this war not to have involved them in more than a 100 page visit kinda way. IMO

I agree. The more things start to come out of the woodwork on the threads...the war had to be connected to them in some way, which makes me, again, wonder about Bast. It's turning into one big vicious cycle.

Dude, I know, that thing freaks me out.

Have you considered (excuse my extremely insane theory) that maybe Kvothe finds a way to free Lanre? He obviously has something going on with him that made him all KILL THE WORLD, change his name status.

Almost like he has another person inside his body.

I dont know, theres no support for that, it's utter nonsense, but I thought about that as a possibility.


Outside all that, I found it interesting the body snatcher creature is quoted as using the word Rhinta...a word seemingly synonymous with The Chandrian.

I've always hoped all these problems stemmed from The Ctheah being freed, but also no real support for that yet either. (Unless that smelly old Lackless box relates back...)

You know amber it depends on if Lanre was Encanis sp before stelitos. Forgive guys I have a fairly large vocab, but can't spell to save my life.

This would be relevant in the sense that after this event he was fundamentally changed by the power of S blood when he renamed him. As we know per Elodin changing a true name means they themselves are changing not that they are a separate entity... So as much as I wish darth revan would come back to the light, I just doubt that will happen.

Another thought though, if the door of stone could be grey stones then maybe Kvothe in opening it/them merged the mortal realm and faen realm. There's my crazy thought for the day. Lol

OMG - I second that on the spelling. Sometimes I just skip using a big a word because although I could say it and use it fine, I'm too lazy to look up how its spelled LOL.

Though Encanis is spelled correctly, if you care. As far as I'm concerned, spelling doesnt matter so long as the point is still clear.

I've always considered Encanis to be related somehow to Haliax, though his demise in that story creates confusion. It's just way way too similar. But in terms of sequence of events Encanis and Tehlu/Menda would occur after the creation war, the formation of the original amyr, the ascension of a portion of the ruach to angels and Lanre's change into Haliax. We know Lanre was as normal as can be before and during the Creation War, up until Drossen Tor where shit starts to get murky. Depending on who is telling the correct story, Denna or Skarpi, we have estabilished that Lyra disappears (at the very least they agree on that) and Lanre becomes evil, or is turned into something messed up by an evil Selitos.

Though you have a great point about the changing of names, that really kills that theory LOL. Though, I don't think Lanre, if "cured" would continue to live. It'd probably be best if he died. If Lyra is dead, especially.

I always thought then if the stories were related then it all happened prior to the name change because in both accounts he goes to seven cities. Six of those fell presumably the same way he intended the last to fall. Which means each of the six Chandrian not including halix would represent some one from each of the cities respectively, thus the seven.

Sooo he was fundamentally changed prior to becoming halix. Being said, the name change equals no change other than the curse of his signs. Which actually could still make sense if Stel didn't change Lanre's name he merely announced through naming that the change occurred.

I suppose though I can't remember the execs excerpt but didnt Stel only change his calling name as we no halix isn't his true name.

Hopefully that all makes sense lol

I always thought the whole Encanis/Menda/Tehlu story was something later interjected through the Tehlin religion. They probably took historical reference and twisted it to fit there goal so they could more easily indoctrinate the masses and turn them against the Fae/Chandrian/Demons.

Though I do agree that each Chandrian are probably a representative of each fallen city. Turn Cloaks or treasonists or something along those lines. But Yes, Lanre was fundamentally changed before attacking all these cities, no matter what story we stick with. It's suggested this occurs because of something he learns from Ctheah and his desire to save Lyra from some unknown something or other. Pretty much he just wasn't clouded in shadow prior to meeting with Selitos and destroying Myr Tarinial. I believe his name was already changed at that point even, just Selito's was blinded by the physical form of his close friend (in Skarpi's version of events) hence why he pokes his eye out then curses him and all his followers.

You got the jist.

Selitos doesn't change his name at all from what I understood. He simply knows it isn't Lanre once he feels the weight of his power. I believe Lanre is the one who says he is Haliax...might double check me on that though.

I've just thought of an idea for behind the doors of stone, you set my mind whirling Amber. The reason we don't know anything factual about Encanis is due to the inherent nature of religion, it's hard to pin down. The same could be true (although to a much lesser extent) about Lanre.

Perhaps behind the 4 plated copper door in the University is the truth about Encanis, like the first bible. It would be a bit anticlimactic but would be interesting.

I know some others on here have speculated that the behind the four plate door could be books.

Books that make the magic Denna is looking for, Books that contain the ture history of the Amyr and Chandrian, and I agree, books like the first Tehlin Book of the Path. Could also be back there.

I don't think that'd be horribly anticlimatic, I think that'd really fit in actually with Kvothe's character. Plus, we could finally get some answers about these fringe groups he's so obsessed with.

I do like how your liken this to the first Bible, since it's really interesting how the bible is translated from its original language and how that actually changes many meanings within. I read this great book "Misquoting Jesus" a couple years ago, blew my mind how mistranslation can potentially effect so many people.

I wouldn't doubt if something like that came into play within these novels, especially since the knowledge of actual history is so obscure.

Actually it doesn't show that he killed them. It only suggests that violence ensued.

Anyway, I do agree that he probably sent them in hopes that Kote would snap out of it and fight them and win or whatever, that the impression I got as well. But at the same time I just don't get that. Bast literally just saw him fail at a fight the day before, Why in the world would he think Kote would have a successful fight one day later?

Maybe Bast thought he'd win and wanted him to feel better about not protecting Shep.

Or maybe Bast is pissed because they didn't kill him.

I don't know. Bast's motives are a complete mystery. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they remained so, since Bast really isn't the focus of the story.

I don't know, just two sides of the coin I guess.

He's either pissed they didnt get the job done

Or pissed they did more than he asked.

I think Bast is after a particular piece of information. A secret name perhaps, or maybe someone's location. It could have something to do with those stone doors that keep popping up. He might be looking for the secret to open them. Anyways, he needs Kvothe to remember who he truly is in order to obtain said information. I don't buy his "I just want my reshi back" - that's just an act, like most of what we've seen him do and say so far. He was the one who ultimately brought Chronicler to Kvothe, having failed his previous attempt at convincing him to write down his past in a diary. But it can't be just information, otherwise he wouldn't need Kvothe to snap out of his Innkeeper act. It might be an ability he wants Kvothe to rediscover then. It could just be naming. Maybe.

what do you think? is it possible that Bast is Kvothe's son and one of them doesn't know it.

I think that possiblity of that is slim Alydia.

But its only personal opinion. There are lots of people who think the Bast is the son of Kvothe and Felurian.

I only don't support the theory because we haven't been presented with Remmen as a name of Kvothe and in fact, Bast calls him Reshi. Also, the age, but thats really a fairly small obstacle.

Bast is one of my favorite characters. He is so enigmatic.

Has anyone read or seen what "Reshi" means? Does it mean teacher? Or something else all together?

I have a completely wild notion. This idea is completely out there, so I realize I am leaving myself open to be lambasted at how preposterous this theory is... but what if Bast is Kvothe's son?

As in, the son of Kvothe and Felurian?

I don't remember where it was said, but I'm pretty sure Bast is older than Kvothe

Sir, though it is mentioned that Bast is in his 100's the fae's time is not in sync with the main time line, as is repeatedly mentioned throughout the books.

I meant ma'am lol

It never says what Reshi means.

I think the assumption is it means teacher, but thats just an assumption.

The K+F=B theory is pretty popular. Though I'm really not for it.

1. Bast is introduced as Son of Remmen by Kote. The books have yet to suggest this might be a name of Kvothe. It seems pretty weird for Kote to introduce Bast this way if indeed he is his own son.

2. Bast is 150 years old. Yes the faen time is out of sink with our own, but it would be pretty outrageous for Bast to have aged 150 years in the time span of approximately less than 10 years in the 4 corners.

3. The Genetic make up of Felurian and Kvothe couldn't possibly create a creature in the form of Bast. He is likely to have at least one parent who is similar to a satyr.

I could probably think of more if I really wanted to sit here a while....

I think occams razor really rules it out, but maybe someone else might want to post the points FOR this theory so we can see.

This is all just conjecture on our part. I don't really buy into the K+F theory either, though. Still, no formula can be derived to determine relative time differential between the two world. As a matter of fact I can remember precisely where but I thought I remember it being mentioned that the phenomenon was quite variable...

I think Kvothe talks about how he is worried that things might be different in his world when he leaves the Fae.

Most of my points could be overlooked for the sake of this theory. Points one and two could go the other way, it'd just be a bit weird and Pat would probably have to do some wordy explanation. But still, they could be overcome.

I think my third point is probably the strongest. Pat has stuck pretty close to actual science so far in his story, and the genetic makeup of Bast just doesn't fit with Felurian and Kvothe, who are both very humanoid. He'd have to go against almost all the setup he's done in his world to make that fit. How do you get a Satyr from a Human and a Nymph? LOL.

But alas we come full circle... So what are Bast true intentions, then. Whats the connect. Why his seeming worship of Kote. Why should the Fae care about a man? Lol Time will tell all I suppose. Pending a global economy that can sustain itself long enough for the Rothfuss guy to finish his maddeningly engrossing story.

True. We really don't know enough about Bast or the entire story to say what his intentions are.

I've always thought he needed Kote to get better so he could get his recommendation to attend The University.

I read another theory that Bast might be the "other" part of Kote. Like together they make Kvothe but somehow they got split apart. Not something I really think is likely, but it was pretty interesting idea.

:) I still ike that idea...what with Basts heart sewn blanky an all. Could easiy be some personification made manfest in search of the philosopers stone.

Amber wrote: "True. We really don't know enough about Bast or the entire story to say what his intentions are.

I've always thought he needed Kote to get better so he could get his recommendation to attend The ..."

We know Bast is Fae, and I don't think there is mention of Fae being admitted to the University, and Kvothe is a little infamous in The University, I don't think his recommendation could pull the strings necessary for this.

The theory of bast being the other part of Kvothe is very interesting.. I'd never heard of that. But I don't think it's possible.

I have aslo heard that the whole series is a 6 parts.... The first three books are in reference to the now..... the next three will be Kvothe back to form and events that follow. Also heard that might put prequel out as well. considering it takes him a average of four years to complete one this series is gonna be like A song of ice and fire..... Where you hope that your alive just to finish the damn series.

@Ashley - right, a lot of speculation builds the theory of Bast being admitted to the University which is why I didn't explore it too much just put the "gist" or whatever LOL. Some of this speculation includes that the Fae and Mortal world are joined together again, making it more likely some Fae would have interest in attending the university to gain knowledge about things like Sympathy and Sigaldry and some may even teach things like Naming or at least contribute. Thats a lot of speculation alone. But further speculation would be, Bast needs to clear Kote's name and put him back to Kvothe because, just as you said, his recommendation is pretty much worthless at this point. If he were cleared of charges though things might sit differently.

Anyway - Way to many possibilities there, its not the best theory, but I always kinda liked it.

As far as the Bast/Kote being connected, I could have swore I was talking to you about that...man, I'm not on my game lately. I believe it was something to do with the Bast vs. Jaime Lannister duel Pat wrote a few years ago. I think someone reasoned shaping might be able to pull something like that off, but also, highly speculative theory. LOL.

@Micheal - I've never heard these rumors from anyone but fans thinking wishfully. From what I've read and watched of Pat he seems pretty adamant (sp?) Kvothe's story will end in Day 3. Afterward he will still write out of the 4 Corners, but Kvothe will not be a main character. Just from reading his blog, I know he's putting out a story based out of Modeg in Unfettered and he's already put together a story based around Bast for a new anthology he hasn't released the title for.

Which I'm stoked to read. I guess the Unfettered story is something like 80,000 words. The Bast story is a lot shorter though, supposedly around 16,000.

Yeah, I think that Bast wouldn't be welcome in the University, at least not without them noticing what he is. Chronicler noticed he was a Fae and I get the feeling he isn't the creme de la creme of the University, despite having earnt his gilder. The University peops would notice his otherworldliness...

As for K+F = B. I think Amber summed it up pretty well. We don't know if Felurian has had other children etc, but I assume not (big assumption I know). I just don't like the idea more than anything else.

Yeah, totally not buying the story in 6 parts. That reeks of desperate fan speculation. We all wish it was but I don't think so. Also, waiting another 10+ years for 3 books, may just send me over the brink into insanity!

Um, Amber? did you get your comments mixed up? I wasnt refin Bast@uni...

I don't really buy into that. Bast has met Denna once, and it is impied in the text that he may hae been to Imre....but it seems a bit of a leap to inent a prolonged period of study (at the uni! Obv K has been turoring him (or trying)).

I think the story in 6 is a mangled rumour of the theory that the stroty, within the 3 books mind, is in 7 parts. Which ties in with the alchemical theme, circular and other lit techs.

P.S. I think I'm the only person who doesn't consider Bast that interesting a character :O

oh boy - sorry @Ashley, sometimes I don't make sense. My mind is on overdrive lately.

I think you guys make some pretty good points about that theory though. (Bast @ Uni) I hadn't really thought the whole thing out. I guess Bast would have trouble blending in at The University. (uh Duh - sheesh, what is up with me lately?)

@ Chris - I didn't find Bast all that interesting in the first book because really he doesnt do much besides sit around and chill with Kote. Which makes some sense, people have friends. But in the second he perked my interest because he became more complex. He wasnt just threatening Chronicler, he was playing Kote by the end of the story. One minute he's very, I love you Kvothe, the next he's sending in people to beat him up. Those motivations definitely created intrigue around his character for me.

I think Bast also found Ctheah. As Kvothe has not yet found the Chandarian Ctheah is likely to have influenced the Kvote to go back to being what it was, it was of interest that this Kvothe found the chandarian

There is no music. Felurian, let Kvothe go to sing her praises. Then come back to her and entertain her. If Kvothe is silent he isn’t going to do much to fulfill that oath… Was it an oath I don’t recall. I just started rereading the series.

Anyway, Bast is her attack dog sent to make, Kvote not kote come home as sworn*, but he needs to be whole to fulfill the oath given. I believe that was the reason Felurian gave Kvothe the Shade- so he would “come back whole” I encourage corrections It really has been a long time since my eyes ran over the pages.

*total speculation.

@Ashley: I’m interested in your post- but I find them very difficult to follow. It looks like English and I know it is but there are too many abbreviated words or text talk that I’m not following/hip to. I apparently am in the minority there as other seem to be following you just fine- can you repost in long hand, or can someone decode?

I just finished listening to the series... and a thought occurred to me about, Bast. Totally out of left field, and based solely on the narrators inflection during the scene.

Could Bast be, Kvothes lover? The scene after kvothe is man handled by the two solders seemed a little... protective... like a lover.

For everything we've seen, Kvothe is only attracted to women. Maybe Bast loves him, that could be, maybe the Fae are pansexual... But Kvothe? I really don't think so.

Everything we have seen is, Kvothe an adolescent boy chasing the one person he has no hopes of achieving a meaningful relationship with.

Like I said however the idea came more from the narrators tone then any actual story line.
.

I didn't listen to the audiobook. But I don't just mean Denna, remember when Kvothe was under the plum bob's effect and wanted to see Fela naked? Not to mention Felurian, the bartender, and Vashet.

He wanted to see fella naked, but not to do anything sexual. He appreciated her aesthetically. He even commented on it and laughed at sim for thinking there would be a problem.

Felurian: That could all be contributed to magic and Kvothe wanting to learn her secrets. ::Shrugs::

vashet: Nothing saying he just isn't sexually flexible... I think there is even a term for it. Bisexual perhaps? And the barmaid was simple exploit. As a man you should understand that. It is hard to turn down an attractive willing partner.

Look, I’m not going to die on the hill for this one. My heart just isn’t in it, and it wasn’t anything in the books themselves. It wasn’t until I listened to the audio version that the thought occurred to me. The audio also turned me on to other subtle things missed in the read through. So I was curious if anyone else picked up on it. More to Bast then kvothe, because Basts motivations are so hidden and muddled thus far. I can see the sneaking little fae watching kvothe from a distance (for whatever reason) then growing affectionate toward him. There was a suggestion that Bast had been keeping tabs on, Kvothe. If Kvothe found him out, or Bast revealed himself to Kvothe and spilled the beans… ::again shrugs::

While it's technically possible, I would doubt it to be the case. I'll explain. Society (at least here in the U.S.) has been encouraging men to be more emotional, communicative, and open, in short, to embrace their feminine side. This has been going on in the U.S. for at least the last couple of decades.

Society has also done this thing where a friendship between men who are open, communicative, and nurturing must be questioned. Society would say, "How could those two be so close WITHOUT being gay?"

A very prominent example would be the relationship between Sam and Frodo from LOTR. They care for each other, are the best of friends, and would die for each other. Sam is explicitly interested in women. However, if you do a google search for "Sam and Frodo gay?" I'm sure you'll come up with countless hits.

All of which is to say, I don't think PR would be unaware of this meme of questioning the sexuality of perfectly heterosexual men. Also, at this point, I can't see what it would add to the story, other than a giant distraction.

oh, its definitely come up. I think Pat even posted some fan fiction where they were lovers on the blog before because he found it quite humorous.

I know Pat did work very closely with Nick to get his accents right, but I'm not sure if he worked on the inflection of any specific parts so hard to say.

I wouldn't completely rule it out. We've already seen that the society isn't extremely against homosexuality as many medieval fantasy like to be, Deoch and Stantion are well respected citizens and Kvothe's sexualization in an open society like Ademre and Fae could easily have made him open to that sort of ideal if he wasn't already.

I'm not saying they can't be just friends either though. Hell, my old man has a friend like that and he's just french (the friend) not gay, they are culturally more open and emotive from what I've experienced with his family and since they have been friends for over 20 years they are extremely close.

Well, if this series were written perhaps 50 years ago, I might not argue with the premise. It would have been seen as edgy or groundbreaking. Now? It doesn't seem like it would add much to the story other than a WTF factor. And as you mention, we already have Deoch and Stantion, which to me is enough of a nod to the idea that it really doesn't need to be a more prominent part of the story.