Space Opera Fans discussion

I am not a fan of aliens in my Space Opera. I prefer my space opera with humans and technology only. What are your thoughts? Does the Space Opera genre need aliens?

No. Books like House of Suns, Dune, Foundation are all pretty widely regarded as space operas, and they don't have aliens. Battlestar Galactica is not a book, but still a space opera by genre, without aliens. There are surely more examples.

The Vorkasigan Saga has alienated humans but no aliens.

No, it does not require aliens. In fact I prefer it without aliens, especially humanoid aliens.

I don't think it requires aliens either.

There are benefits to either approach but they aren't a requirement of the genre.

Definitely not required by the genre.

However, you could say Space Opera has several sub-genres, one of which is Alien contact, and another is Alien conflict.

There is however a lot of very good Space Opera which doesn't have Aliens of any kind.

Aliens, ray guns, FTL space ships. Why not? But not required.

I could venture to speculate that whenever a "space opera" does not involve FTL travel, it usually also doesn't include aliens. just a random notion on my part. Likely not to stand up to rigorous investigation.

The further away from Earth a book gets, the more likely to be Aliens involved. However, its not a certainty.

It becomes a matter of the author determining where Aliens are likely to be, and deciding not to have them be met.

There are plenty of reasons why even an FTL based story might never meet aliens.

Timothy wrote: "The further away from Earth a book gets, the more likely to be Aliens involved. However, its not a certainty.

It becomes a matter of the author determining where Aliens are likely to be, and deci..."

Pick whatever numbers you like for the Drake equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_e... since nobody really knows. The Fl Fi and L terms are most useful for writers. Personally I've chosen very small numbers giving an average of less than one civilisation per galaxy.

It comes down to an author deciding what they want. :)

For me, it was only humans on our arm of the galaxy, with several things preventing the rest of the galaxy from entering the equation. For now, it works. Later, I need to rethink it on a galaxy wide basis.

Thinking about it, I prefer my space opera without aliens. Adding aliens give the author a whole additional imaginary world(s) to develop, which can take away from the absolutely necessary world building for the human setting. World building is a core requirement for a good yarn.

I quite like aliens in co-operation with humans, who of course are always fighting each other.

Require aliens? No.

I did kind of like how intelligent aliens slipped into the military space opera that is Honor Harrington's series. The intelligent aliens were not, at first, recognized as being intelligent aliens. Because they looked like cats (with extra arms). Also, while they did in fact communicate, they communicated mostly telepathically, which was not detected by humans.

So, vast reaches of space. Filled with humans. Naturally they overlooked the intelligent aliens in their midst.

I got distracted there thinking about treecats. In a series I gave up on long ago.

Only if the writer can create an interesting and believable alien race. If they are basically humans with tentacles, then stick with humans.

I haven't read about many aliens, having read mostly fantasy throughout my life, however, I found the Tines from A Fire Upon the Deep pretty incredible. So if the author can create some awesome and unique aliens, then I say go for it. Though, I don't know if you could technically count A Fire Upon the Deep as a space opera.

Personally, I can go either way. It just kind of depends on my mood I guess.

Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Require aliens? No.

I got distracted there thinking about treecats. In a series I gave up on long ago. ..."

I couldn't get into the Honor Harrington series - way too much technical discussion of imaginary weapons. If the have a version of tree cats (or even Heinlein's flat cat), I may have to revisit.

*Back on topic* No they don't need aliens - see Dune etc references above. Although, cool believable aliens are a plus.

I like it either way, but I like aliens as long as they are 'relateable' in some way, unless it's military sci-fi, in which case blow those bad boys up!

Gem wrote: "Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Require aliens? No.

I got distracted there thinking about treecats. In a series I gave up on long ago. ..."

I couldn't get into the Honor Harrington series - way too much tec..."

There is a young adult spin off series thar involves Treecats. It's the only thing of his I still read. Though the last one I read in that series was kinda annoying. The first two were much better. It's a prequel series.

It's much less technical. Well, the first two. Third might ramo up certain things. I forget now.
A Beautiful Friendship being the first I the series (though it itself is an extended version of a short story)

Joel wrote: "I haven't read about many aliens, having read mostly fantasy throughout my life, however, I found the Tines from A Fire Upon the Deep pretty incredible. So if the author can create some awesome and unique aliens, then I say go for it. Though, I don't know if you could technically count A Fire Upon the Deep as a space opera."

I would.

And the Tines were fascinating. But we seem to all be agreed that aliens are not a "necessary and sufficient" determining factor for space opera. However, if you're gonna add them in, don't settle for half measures. I could cite books by Iain M. Banks (notably the Culture stories) and Neal Asher as prime examples of how to do it right.

The Mote in Gods Eye, is also a prime example of doing Aliens right.

Gem wrote: *Back on topic* No they don't need aliens - see Dune etc references above. Although, cool believable aliens are a plus.


The awesome alien worms did a lot for the Dune setting, and those navigators evolved from the worm spice, gave the next level of outlandish experience I believe is needed for space opera.

True, there is alien life in Dune. And yes, often space opera without proper aliens will feature transhumanism that makes humans pretty alien (such as Dune, House of Suns, Vorkasigan, and even Revelation Space if you allow extinct aliens and weird Solaris-style sea creatures). Or, like in BSG, Asimov, House of Suns and the Dune prequels, there are robots that seem alien.

Timothy wrote: "The Mote in Gods Eye, is also a prime example of doing Aliens right." I can't bring myself to like that book. Aliens seemed a little goofy to me.

Tom wrote: "Timothy wrote: "The Mote in Gods Eye, is also a prime example of doing Aliens right." I can't bring myself to like that book. Aliens seemed a little goofy to me."

My dad considered it required reading for me.

FYI - here's a short story I wrote about what contact is like with alien species. Sort of a dark comedy. In this, dealing with aliens is a confusing, deadly and unpleasant experience. It's a free short set in the Timberwolf universe. It shows the divide that would exist between incompatible intelligences.

https://zharmaeblog.wordpress.com/201...

Lexxi Kitty wrote: "I did kind of like how intelligent aliens slipped into the military space opera that is Honor Harrington's series. The intelligent aliens were not, at first, recognized as being intelligent aliens. Because they looked like cats (with extra arms). Also, while they did in fact communicate, they communicated mostly telepathically, which was not detected by humans."

I'm reading #9 right now, where they try to teach the treecats sign language.
And just the other day I remembered that there was this alien barbarian race in the first book and wondered why he didn't include more (there are some other alien race mentioned in the ninth book), but I have this growing feeling that Weber just isn't very good at making interesting aliens, so its nice that he pretty much stay away from aliens.

...except for that teddy-bear/shoulder-ornament that Honor needs to drag around and babysit because it gives her her magic powers.

Oh right. I forgot that the first book had aliens. Hmms, I recalled Weber making some comment about how he wanted a series that was just humans in space. Maybe that was a dream I had and not something he said at some point. Because if he did say that, he screwed up with the very first book in that series.

Spoiler is about the first book.
(view spoiler)[It was the classic - give the natives guns, push them to do something stupid (like kill the 'intruders' living amongst them). Then swoop in because 'obviously' the group assigned to watch over the place were incompetent. And therefore the People's Republic (or whatever they were calling themselves at the time) would get a wormhole, cheap (whatever Weber called wormholes in the series). (hide spoiler)]

I don't mind aliens per se, because they can be interesting for a while when done really well, but often the book often get lost in the old and busted "aliens are very alien"-theme, and lose any sight of a relatable psychologically- and motive-driven plot go out the window because the author want to describe his pet aliens in excruciating detail.

Its kinda the same thing with artificial intelligence and especially androids, if one of those enter the story, there is a real risk of much debate on what it means to be human and thinly veiled moral commentary.

And if you're really unlucky, the author has some half-baked
social or moral agenda he wants to ram down your throat.

Lexxi Kitty wrote: I got distracted there thinking about treecats. In a series I gave up on long ago.

Lexxi, you are definitely more discriminating (in the good sense) than I am. I keep buying HH books hoping they will get back to the spare and creative writing of the first couple of books. These days Weber's novels are bloated, bloatier and bloatiest. I'm going to remember your comment the next time I'm temped to buy another.

Treecats are one Sci-Fi imaginary population that I'd wish into existence in a heart beat, if I'm ever granted the powers of a deity.

Yeah, Weber is getting a little out of hand. We see the same thing with many artists who become successful: no one will tell them "No."

So George R.R. Martin's books become longer and ramblier, George Lucas does whatever he wants with Star Wars, and so on. That's because there's an audience there who will consume it and demand more, so the creator has no incentive to change.

Weber specifically started getting unwieldy when he switched from typing to using voice-to-text with Dragon Naturally Speaking. I think it's on his website somewhere that he mentions how much his word count increased as a result. That's pretty obviously reflected in his output.

Trike wrote: "Yeah, Weber is getting a little out of hand. We see the same thing with many artists who become successful: no one will tell them "No."

So George R.R. Martin's books become longer and ramblier, Ge..."

The Safehold series doesn't seem to have become looser or rambling. And the newer Saganami offshoots of HH aren't as verbose either.

Safehold became very rambling, nearly running in place. I was hoping to see these aliens that chased the human race into hiding, but he's now said the story will never leave the planet. I get it: intrigue, bad guys, religion, politics, blah blah blah. Get ON with it already.

Niels wrote: "I don't mind aliens per se, because they can be interesting for a while when done really well, but often the book often get lost in the old and busted "aliens are very alien"-theme, and lose any si..."

I have a different take on this. My thinking parallels Niven's. By deciding which ecological niche the aliens fill it is possible to get a handle on their psychology. His "puppeteers" for example fill a niche similar to that of terrestrial horses, and have a very equine way of thinking in that they run away at the first hint of danger, and think in terms of herds.

Trike wrote: "Safehold became very rambling, nearly running in place. I was hoping to see these aliens that chased the human race into hiding, but he's now said the story will never leave the planet. I get it: i..."

I love the Safehold novels, but they've become almost more alternate history as they've gone along rather than sci-fi.

I like to have aliens in my space opera, but you certainly don't need them. I would be happy with pirates or some other human enemy. Maybe robots and a nasty AI.

R. wrote: "I have a different take on this. My thinking parallels Niven's. By deciding which ecological niche the aliens fill it is possible to get a handle on their psychology. His "puppeteers" for example fill a niche similar to that of terrestrial horses, and have a very equine way of thinking in that they run away at the first hint of danger, and think in terms of herds. "

It really depends on how much in love the author is with those aliens.
One of the things that actually works out with Star Wars is that the aliens are strange and mysterious, and they mostly stay that way, because nobody starts commenting on them or philosophising - because humans treat them normal people with some quirks, like "meet Chewbacca, don't piss him off", and then the story can move on to where it was going in the first place.
Alien psychology can be interesting, if done really really well and has a significant impact on the plot.
On the other hand, I've read quite a few famous books, where it just dragged down the pace. For instance the Tines (?) in Zones of thoughts are pretty interesting, but get OFF that planet already!
And move on to those zones of thought that everybody thought was such an inspiring idea. But no, we are probably going to spend at least 1-2 books in the slow-zone and perhaps with some extra filler-books off the main storyline thrown in.

Several alien races of the "planet of the hats"-variety also ruined the Lost Fleet series imo

At some point I had to set aside Robert Silverberg's Marjipoor series when the aliens became so alien that I found myself spending my mental energy trying to visualize all the stuff he was describing rather that the story. It was too bad as I was enjoying it up to that point, but when it's no longer fun to read, I tend to set things aside.

[*yes, I realize that means I have the attention span of a squirrel*]

I like a bit of alien-ness, but not too much. The only one who really handled the too-alien-to-relate-to trope without making it a drag was Heinlein with Starship Troopers (because, hey, who doesn't like to just blow anything up you don't understand?)

Jim wrote: "I could cite books by Iain M. Banks (notably the Culture stories) and Neal Asher as prime examples of how to do it right.

Hmm. I kind of differ on that opinion. Most of the aliens in Banks's and Asher's books are essentially indistinguishable from humans as far as their psychology and motivations are concerned. I don't care what biology you give an alien race, if they act like humans they aren't really aliens in my mind.

There are very, very few examples of the truly alien in the SF I've read. The two most alien I can think of are both from Stanislaw Lem (Solaris and Eden).

The only other effective aliens I can think of are of the "you shall never meet them" kind. Like in 2001: A Space Odyssey and The Forge of God (alien entities that never reveal their true form: unknowable, mysterious, enigmatic).

Anyway, in the future humans will be the aliens (transhuman or posthuman or simply speciation caused by humans being scattered across the galaxy in thousands of different environments).

(OT: definitely not required and I'd prefer they not be there at all unless they are necessary for the story. If there's no really story-driven reason for aliens, they simply become window dressing, setting, color. Which I guess isn't bad, but it's superfluous.)

I liked Cherryh's Foreigner series. Aliens so culturally different from us that any interaction with them can have dire consequences. Only a single specially trained individual can interface between them and humans.

Micah wrote: "Jim wrote: "I could cite books by Iain M. Banks (notably the Culture stories) and Neal Asher as prime examples of how to do it right.

Hmm. I kind of differ on that opinion. Most of the aliens in Banks's and Asher's books are essentially indistinguishable from humans as far as their psychology and motivations are concerned."

Just considering Asher alone, have you read much of the Polity/Cormac novels or the Spatterjay books? I would submit that the Prador or the Dragon or most certainly the Gabbleduck are pretty far from human.

Anna wrote: "I like a bit of alien-ness, but not too much. The only one who really handled the too-alien-to-relate-to trope without making it a drag was Heinlein with Starship Troopers (because, hey, who doesn't like to just blow anything up you don't understand?) "

I've actually been pondering a bit about how aliens can be used to revive colonial tropes that are way, way non-PC outside sci-fi and fantasy settings, such as racism, war of conquest, slavery, piracy, plunder of indegineous populations, genocide etc..
And wether I should consider it entertaining swashbuckling fun (in limited amounts) or feel bad about it.

And if you can include it your own writing without feeling like John Ringo

Jim wrote: "Just considering Asher alone, have you read much of the Polity/Cormac novels or the Spatterjay books? ..."

I've read 3 of the Polity/Cormac books. The Dragon is his only really non-human creation in my mind. We don't really know its motivation. And it's kept pretty much in the mysterious, unknowable side of aliens, though he allows it to be seen and interacted with quite a bit. However, the Prador are pretty much human aside from their biology. They are motivated by territorial and power dynamics and have internal power struggles. But they are totally understandable w/in a human context. (And I hate reading about them because I keep being reminded of how I've not had any really good steamed blue crabs in ages!)

That didn't spoil the books for me, I think he's a decent writer, but I've given up reading him for reasons outside his actual writing that I won't go into here. Banks as well was a decent writer despite how I feel about his aliens.

Niels wrote: "I've actually been pondering a bit about how aliens can be used to revive colonial tropes that are way, way non-PC outside sci-fi and fantasy settings, such as racism, war of conquest, slavery, piracy, plunder of indegineous populations, genocide etc..
And wether I should consider it entertaining swashbuckling fun (in limited amounts) or feel bad about it..."

Well that's certainly one valid use of aliens as long as you don't romanticize the nasty stuff.

I don't see why we would ever need to be PC when writing fiction, nor why aliens would need to comply to our ideas of morality or even justice. Going around trying to impose our concepts on aliens sounds like an excellent way to start an interstellar war.

Niels wrote: "I've actually been pondering a bit about how aliens can be used to revive colonial tropes that are way, way non-PC outside sci-fi and fantasy settings, such as racism, war of conquest, slavery, piracy, plunder of indegineous populations, genocide etc.."

Wyndham did this, and subverted the trope magnificently, in his short story "Dumb Martian". I won't post a spoiler but the ending is very clever.

My feeling is that just under the civilised surface of the human race there is a vein of alligator-brained selfish nastiness that seeks to consume anything it sees. We maintain the fiction that we have got past that sort of thing, but as soon as someone thinks that they can get away with it, look what happens.

The time and distance involved in interstellar travel mean that by the light of other suns there will be people who believe that they can get away with rapes, murders, confiscations of property, and enslavements.

That's why I effectively introduce an order of chivalry to my future, as did Lucas with the Jedi. To deal with the sort of thing that could happen you need the high-tech lone warrior armed with lightsabre or confederate energy weapon, riding an X-wing or one of my eighty-footers, and charging to the rescue as appropriate.

The only difference is that my perfect, gentle knight is female and has a liking for good restaurants and designer evening wear...

V.W. wrote: "I don't see why we would ever need to be PC when writing fiction, nor why aliens would need to comply to our ideas of morality or even justice. Going around trying to impose our concepts on aliens ..."

My take on this is that the aliens discover that we are a race of nasty semi-evolved simians who have both space travel and nuclear weapons and immediately run away.

R. wrote: "My take on this is that the aliens discover that we are a race of nasty semi-evolved simians who have both space travel and nuclear weapons and immediately run away. "

Unless they are the ultimate pacifists, I don't see why they would. Just drop a rock on us. Problem solved.

Trike wrote: "R. wrote: "My take on this is that the aliens discover that we are a race of nasty semi-evolved simians who have both space travel and nuclear weapons and immediately run away. "

Unless they are t..."

I was playing with the idea of a sentient race developed from a prey species, rather like deer. They keep as working animals a creature that occupies the ecological niche of our chimpanzee. When they meet an individual human this leads to a lot of confusion.

The point is that aggression is foreign to their way of thinking. Seeing one of our conflicts they would say, "Why fight when you can escape?"

I'm going to have to stop reading these comments while I'm writing. But I am considering an appointment with my vet to discuss the essential differences between different organisms, so you can expect some aliens in at least one of my books. ;)