Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

This is totally random...

But is zero a number?

The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero



The History of Zero: Exploring Our Place-Value Number System

considering decimal system, yes it is a whole number

Historically it did not start out as a number, but as a placeholder (1, 10, 100, 1000, etc.) and to fill in empty columns.

But as a human species, we like to complicate things...learning about stuff in more depth....science and shit....we are a bunch of crazies!

Zero is not defined. Does it prove the presence of something? Does it prove the absence of something?

In a mathematical problem, can you cancel out a zero?

And what about a photon at rest (Mo=0 and v=0)? Is the answer valid in reality? Do all photons contain the same amount of energy regardless of their frequency? Do all photons, regardless of color, have the same frequency?

0/0 can assume different values. Can a numerical fraction have different values?

yes u r right. there r many anomalies in maths regarding 0...
but if u see the decimal number system, it's basically a set of repetitions...
00 to 09, then 10 to 19, and so on
and if u see the next set, it's
100,101,102......111,112......and so on... so here 0 is not treated as anything "special" but treated as other digits only....
so I think 0 is a number....
it is not a natural number, but it definitely is a whole number

Why didn't many older Civilizations use zero then?

James wrote: "Why didn't many older Civilizations use zero then?"

Many did. It existed way before decimal systems. Babylonians (Mayans etc.) first had the concept of zero.

Roman number system did not contain 0 , and that is the reason it failed and decimal system is still uses today

Masi: is nothing a value? If there are zero elephants in this world, can we even say that elephants exist?

Krishna: did the Roman numerical system fail?

P.S. Is -1, or anything "less than zero", a number?

The Origin of Zero - an article on Scientific American - says:

"The number zero as we know it arrived in the West circa 1200, most famously delivered by Italian mathematician Fibonacci (aka Leonardo of Pisa), who brought it, along with the rest of the Arabic numerals, back from his travels to north Africa. But the history of zero, both as a concept and a number, stretches far deeper into history—so deep, in fact, that its provenance is difficult to nail down.
"There are at least two discoveries, or inventions, of zero," says Charles Seife, author of Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea (Viking, 2000). "The one that we got the zero from came from the Fertile Crescent." It first came to be between 400 and 300 B.C. in Babylon, Seife says, before developing in India, wending its way through northern Africa and, in Fibonacci's hands, crossing into Europe via Italy."

More: https://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...

Also from that article above:

"Initially, zero functioned as a mere placeholder—a way to tell 1 from 10 from 100, to give an example using Arabic numerals. "That's not a full zero," Seife says. "A full zero is a number on its own; it's the average of –1 and 1."
It began to take shape as a number, rather than a punctuation mark between numbers, in India in the fifth century A.D., says Robert Kaplan, author of The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero (Oxford University Press, 2000). "It isn't until then, and not even fully then, that zero gets full citizenship in the republic of numbers," Kaplan says. Some cultures were slow to accept the idea of zero, which for many carried darkly magical connotations."

Ok, I've been converted to The Way of Zero.
And fight all those (like Lisa!) who imply Zero is just nothing and not worthy :)
Acknowledge equal mathematical rights for Zero!
Say no to mathematical discrimination!
Yes 9 and 8 are the elite, but zero is a ground hero, forming a grassroots movement...trying to help those less even privileged like -1, -2, -3 etc.

P.S. The Way of Zero may not be good for my brain...

thanks for the info Harry......

James, yes of course Roman numeral system failed..
and -1 is after all a real number, so it is a number I guess

Well, according to Orwell: 2 + 2 = 5. ;)

yes! zero is our hero!

Krishna, you now belong to the Way of Zero.
Here we believe nothing is not nothing.
Even if you have nothing, deep down you still got something and therefore you're a Zero Hero :)

If we're actually in a matrix, then zeroes and ones were here long before anything else.... :)

Because Orwell belonged to the Fabian Society. He's part of the mathematical elite and rewrite numerology to his liking.
But you can't because Zero is the real Hero!

Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "Harry wrote: "Well, according to Orwell: 2 + 2 = 5. ;)"

??? Why does he say that?"

It's from 1984.

As Wikipedia explains:

"In the novel, it is used as an example of an obviously false dogma that one may be required to believe, similar to other obviously false slogans promoted by the Party in the novel. It is contrasted with the phrase "two plus two makes four", the obvious—but politically incorrect—truth.

Orwell's protagonist, Winston Smith, uses the phrase to wonder if the State might declare "two plus two equals five" as a fact; he ponders whether, if everybody believes it, does that make it true? The Inner Party interrogator of thought-criminals, O'Brien, says of the mathematically false statement that control over physical reality is unimportant; so long as one controls one's own perceptions to what the Party wills, then any corporeal act is possible, in accordance with the principles of doublethink ("Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once")."

So you also accept your offer to join the Way of Zero, Harry?
First initiation is to empty your pockets.
Your bank account will immediately become zero too, you'll note.
But don't fret because zero is not nothing remember :)

James wrote: "So you also accept your offer to join the Way of Zero, Harry?
First initiation is to empty your pockets.
Your bank account will immediately become zero too, you'll note.
But don't fret because zero..."

My bank account's already way below zero mate...

I saw a mathematical article which asked: if infinity is not a number, then why do some say zero is not a number?
There's a secret movement designed to delegitimise zero's status, I tell ya.
A bit like how astronomers downgraded Pluto from a planet to a moon.

Tim wrote: "Zero is represented by a circle that symbolically means nothing, yet, because a circle has no beginning or end, it is eternal."

Good observation Tim. Zero is all and nothing!

This is starting to sound like a Zen riddle, Tim.

If zero is nothing, and meaningless and useless as many say, then why is it when you add a lot of zeroes to your worth you suddenly get a lot more of everything you want?

nice thought Tim....very nice

there's one more thing....
while creation there was something out of nothing... this idea is odd but is very similar to the idea that 0! is 1

that's a relevant question James..

If there are zero dinosaurs now, and zero has a value, then why is it dinos are now said to be extinct?

First rule of science, Krishna: you can't (ever!) get something from nothing.
Ergo, the Big Bang Theory is a misunderstanding. Before the Big Bang was not nothing, but something...it's only being viewed as nothing for the time being just like how many previously said zero was nothing before the Way of Zero became more popular...

As zero is a circle, is infinity contained with zero?

Anything whatsoever you want, Masi.
There are zero limitations in the Underground...

right on that James...

infinity has symbol of 2 zeros or circles... is there a hidden meaning ?? :-/

That 0 on its own appears to be nothing, but two zeroes together is infinity or God or All-That-Is?

this is so confusing...
0 and infinity compliments each other, like 1/infinity=0 and vice versa.... so number of circles in 0= 3- number of circles in infinity and vice versa, and 3 as Nikola Tesla has said, is a very important number

no I don't think so Masi

Nothing to be precise

Masi you just rejected the Way of Zero by saying zero is nothing but a concept...

This is the zero (nothing) thread, so why does nothing need to go somewhere, Masi? What is it about nothingness (aka infinity) that makes you uncomfortable?

that's a nice question..... I think yes infinity is a variable because infinity is not same for everyone in every situation

How can infinity be a variable when infinity is limitless by definition, Lord Krishna?

Yay, Masi: you are welcomed back to the Way of Zero cult :)

James wrote: "First rule of science, Krishna: you can't (ever!) get something from nothing.
Ergo, the Big Bang Theory is a misunderstanding. Before the Big Bang was not nothing, but something...it's only being v..."

Wrong, James...in space, you CAN get something out of nothing ;)

With Zero, the devil is in the details....hence Zero is not really a number, but the name given the very first eternal multiversal being....you can argue both for and against it and be right and wrong all at the same time......

Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "is infinity a variable? (I'm just asking random questions to make this go somewhere)"

infinity is not a number, but rather a symbol....so the question becomes: can something that cannot be measured be a variable?

So you're saying Lisa that the First Law of Thermodynamics, which states you cannot get something from nothing, does not apply once you go past the Earth's atmosphere?

There is never nothing Masi.
Lisa is delusional
She's not a Zero Hero
So come to the Way of Zero cult where we show you the something hidden in the "nothing" :)

James wrote: "So you're saying Lisa that the First Law of Thermodynamics, which states you cannot get something from nothing, does not apply once you go past the Earth's atmosphere?"

I am saying that it is time to revise the First Law of Thermodynamics.

Empty space is full of atoms and therefore DOES NOT consist of nothing.

infinity is a variable because it's relative... something which is of finite size to a man, is of infinite size to an ant!

Krishna wrote: "infinity is a variable because it's relative... something which is of finite size to a man, is of infinite size to an ant!"

How can something that cannot be assigned any value be given a tangible quantity?

But Krish, either something is infinite (endless) or finite and has an end somewhere. Our perceptions are irrelevant to the real measurement. Or am I missing something?
P.S. Why has this thread shifted from zero to infinity? Is that possibly because the true meaning of zero IS infinity?

Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Krishna wrote: "infinity is a variable because it's relative... something which is of finite size to a man, is of infinite size to an ant!"

How can something that cannot be assigned a..."

No, it makes in undefinable, an abstract notion of a concept that the human mind is incapable of comprehending.

A variable is definable and is not abstract, because it can be assigned a specific value(s) in relation to other values.