Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I didn't believe in outlines until I started writing a trilogy, now I don't know what I would do with ought them. I think the key to a good outline, is just to make it work for you. If you push it into being a "proper" outline, you might get bogged down. Just make it your own. Sometimes mine are on the back of a cocktail napkin. :)

Eric,

I've tried lots of ways to write. But I was never happy with any of them. The method I described in my earlier post keeps me excited every day and every minute until the book is fully drafted. It would be kinda neat if it was something that evolved over a long period of time, or thought, but it just came together while outlining the first book in the series I'm currently working on. It's a good bet that there are lots of other ways I could write and still be happy, but, at this point, I see no reason to experiment further. It does the job.

P.S. There's actually more to it than what I described. I just didn't want to bore people with some of the finer details. For example, when I get all the chapter treatments finished, I then create all chapters files in Scrivener, using place-holder names when necessary. Below that I paste in the two-page treatments, setting it off in bold. Starting with the the first chapter, I translate the treatment one line at a time into story and dialogue. Once a sentence from the treatment has been translated, I delete it. When the chapter treatment is completely gone, I have a complete draft of that chapter.
I always know where I'm going to start on any given day. Which, to me, is an asset. And I'm totally charged up about getting to the next line because all I want to do it get the thing finished so I can start one day editing the finished draft. And after about nine passes of edits—five or six in Scrivener, three or four on printed sheets of paper—I GET TO SHOW IT TO SOMEONE!!! That's the best part. Of course, the first person who sees it is my editor . . . and, that first edit she does comes back filled with red ink. But she keeps assuring me that it's not the worst thing she's ever seen, and . . . she always asks for more chapters. So, as long as she keeps asking for more chapters, I'll keep turning out books.

Anna wrote: "As a new author, I am so hungry for reader feedback."
Although I'm not a new author...feedback from readers is always welcomed..good, bad, indifferent.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Wow Steven a fully loaded question. I believe every author has their own approach to a novel. There are times kernels (sparks of genius) will not pan out into a full novel. Careful mind mapping of the story is needed. Research into the market is preferable than flying blind. Research into the subject matter is essential, but a lot of times I'll take what I know and then research in details. Usually by the first three chapters I'll know whether or not it's workable.

Atarah wrote: "Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But what else can I do? I can't give up o..."

As an author I was estatic over the fact that I had finally written my book.
I was very excited when Eloquent Books gave me a merit contract to conventionally publish my book (50/50 profit sharing and at no financial cost to me)
I was over the moon at the unpurchaced, reviewers' positive reviews, which compared my sci-fi novel to the best works of John Wyndham and Aldous Huxley.

Then, I was terrified that my novel, for all of its merit,will sit anonymous among 10,000 other novels of various merit in the bowels of the www.

However, the terror soon dissapates when I occasionally re-read my own works and all of the excitment, the wonder, and the understanding, which I hoped to engender in the reader, is renewed in me the author.
I know that although fiction,there is so much of me in this story that confirms my belief in a meaning to life and the humanity factor, which lives somewhere deep in us all.
Believe in you work Julie!

Re-read it from time to time, and if it always stirs in you the author, the same emotions you want your readers to feel, then you will know that it is good!
If it does not stir you,then analyse for yourself why it does not, and then correct it until it does.
Wishing you the best of success ( Luck has nothing to do with it creatively.)
Dennis Pennefather

Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But what else can I do? I can't give up on myself, can I?"

Don't worry, Julie. I think all authors have that nail-biting paranoia in the back of their minds. I know I do. But I wouldn't give up -- someone is going to like your work, and someone is going too hate it. It's just the truth of things. So, you write what your number one fan would want to read (yourself), and then you write for those people who will like your story. :) Don't worry about the others.

First line in: The Foxfire Chronicles: Shadows of Past Memories

Reaye wiped a bead of sweat from her forehead as she ran down the narrow passageway, her throat closing in on her, her muscles aching.

First line in: Clara Claus

She could hardly bring herself to remember her mother on the best of days, and didn't even try to remember her on the worst.

Hope you enjoyed! :)

I think if someone loves my books enough they will leave a review.

If they hate them they will leave a review to warn others away.

Julie, In our writer's circle we've found that writers who read their work wanting genuine critism so they can improve, are modest about their work, which is usually excellent.

Those who think their work is brilliant and object to comments about what it wrong with it, are often terrible writers.

Your work is probably very good, but it's difficult to be objective about one's own writing.

Julie wrote: "This is the first paragraph of my romantic suspense, The Serpent and the Stag.


The click of the latch shattered the silence. Sarah Williams glanced up ..."

Julie, it's gripping.

I actually find that it bugs me more when a person will leave a rating, especially a low rating, and not say why. It doesn't help me as a writer to be given 1 or 2 stars and not understand why that rating was given.

Sherri wrote: "I actually find that it bugs me more when a person will leave a rating, especially a low rating, and not say why. It doesn't help me as a writer to be given 1 or 2 stars and not understand why that..."

I agree, even if they only say they just didn't enjoy the story or hated the character's name. We all know that we can't please everyone, but I'd be nice to know if that rating was just from someone that doesn't like what we have to say or that there was some glaring plot error that didn't allow them to enjoy it.

Bridget wrote: "Sherri wrote: "I actually find that it bugs me more when a person will leave a rating, especially a low rating, and not say why. It doesn't help me as a writer to be given 1 or 2 stars and not unde..."

Unfortunately, they usually don't say which it is. But, it would be nice. I like to know if my plot seems off, because then I can improve in the next book, but if the rating/review isn't telling you, then...how would you know?

One of my books got slammed recently and at first, I wondered if the reviewer might have had a point. I re-read what he found made it "a poor book" (what his own two-star rating means, apparently) and discovered that he was utterly mistaken on every count - a misunderstanding or a misreading on his part. Unfortunately, his review sticks to practically every website on the net and every time I spot it, I feel I deserve a right of reply. No such luck. I have to hope that the good reviews will swamp it, eventually. Still, very galling.

Russell wrote: "One of my books got slammed recently and at first, I wondered if the reviewer might have had a point. I re-read what he found made it "a poor book" (what his own two-star rating means, apparently)..."

That is disappointing. :(

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. As the author, I think as long as you like it, and you didn't see any justification in their review, then your book is probably fine. You'll always have someone who hates it, and someone who loves it. And, truthfully, I think on average potential readers pay more attention to why someone likes it versus why they didn't.

Russell wrote: "One of my books got slammed recently and at first, I wondered if the reviewer might have had a point. I re-read what he found made it "a poor book" (what his own two-star rating means, apparently)..."

You can only hope that others will see it along side the good review and get curiious enough to pick it up and read it for themselves. I had a reviewer give me 1/2 star review on my newest book. Thankfully, it was only on LibraryThing and not Amazon or here on Goodreads, but it still stings everytime I think about it. In my case, she did not approve of the content so she admittedly skimed the book and found it boring. Considering the book is an emotional ride rather than an action packed thriller, I don't doubt that she had difficultly getting into the book whist skimming it. Not much I could do about it, and and used to to my advantage posting it on my FB fan page for some of my readers who thought she was rediculous given her comments. That doesn't always work, but you have to use marketing where you can.

To the other writers who posted about the anxiety when releasing a book, I HEAR YOU! About a week before I was ready to hit "publish" (on Kindle Direct Publishing) I started to get stomach cramps. It was like I was constantly doing sit-ups. And whoo-ee I was CRANKY. I had been so excited and felt really good about the work I was doing and then suddenly it as getting very real and I was so, so terrified. As soon as the book was live the cramps went away and I became excited again. I was so relieved that I actually did it!

To those interested in reading my novel's first line, here you go:

"At fifteen years old, Leentje – or Leen, as she was called – De Graaf did not know how to diagnose the mix of frustrations and emotions that collected into the tiniest of split–second decisions, spiraling into a flex of the muscle at the top of her knee, then hurtling down into a thrust from the ball of her right foot, pushing hard on the gas."

River in the Sea

Tina wrote: "To the other writers who posted about the anxiety when releasing a book, I HEAR YOU! About a week before I was ready to hit "publish" (on Kindle Direct Publishing) I started to get stomach cramps...."

Nice first line! :D

Agreed. There are going to be good and bad reviewers, and publishing for the first time is horrible scary, because a novel is like your baby -- you spend so much time on it, nurturing it and watching it grow up. But, I try not to worry too much about negativity. The way I see it, it's best to write for the fans, the people who do and will like your work.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Sometimes I only have an idea and just start writing and see what I pluck out of the universe. For a laugh I wondered what would happen if a minature poodle who carried the werewolf virus bit a human. That idea is now 19000, words and on the way to becoming a 70,000 word novel.

Atlantis Soulmates to be released soon started as a what if? scenario. It is now 85000 words.

Thats how it works for me. Ask yourself a question what if? Then just start writing; do research as you go if you need to but get down a manuscript no matter how rough. Good luck!!!!!!!

Lisa MH wrote: "My novel is very much under developement. So much so that I haven't even settled on a name for it yet. But right now the first line is:

The police stood waiting outside my door as I drove up."

stood and waiting have a similar meaning. maybe 'were waiting' or two grim faced policemen were waiting. (add some tension.)

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Steven, I started writing my novel with only a hint of where I wanted to go with it. As my characters spoke, they became real to me and led me down a path I did not expect. As I continued, it soon became apparent I needed to write two more books to truly complete the tale, which was a huge surprise to me, for when I set out, I only thought to write one book and cross that item off my bucket list.

I had no idea my heroine would get abducted, it just happened. The other thing that surprised me was as soon as I needed another character, how easily that character developed from various traits I had observed in others. I DID know my villain would be pattered after a bottom-feeder I'd known in the past. Telling the world about him in this fashion gave me a sense of euphoria. (I should be ashamed for admitting that, but I'm not.)

Thanks for the question!
H. H. Laura
http://www.Sensates.com

Glenn wrote: "Hey, I've got an idea that will be fun and help all of us imagine that we're promoting our books:

What's the first line of your novel? "

"Alexandra was trapped."

Hmmm.... LOL I guess it's good to laugh at yourself.

H. H. Laura
Larkspur - Sensate Book 1
http://www.Sensates.com

H.H. wrote: "Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you..."

For me I try to see everything before starting to actually write. That's not to say things sometimes don't change when the process starts, but that feel smore like exploring a side path off the road I've mapped out. I try to think everything out in my head, then 'watch' it and write it down as simply and as well as I can.

Alexandra wrote: "Russell wrote: "One of my books got slammed recently and at first, I wondered if the reviewer might have had a point. I re-read what he found made it "a poor book" (what his own two-star rating me..."

You have to have a quiet but clear sense of the thing you have done. In a (blogged) review of my latest novel, the 'reviewer' questioned 'Has he even ever met a real woman?' - in a Time Out review I got 4 stars, and in literary magazine they are (again) likening me to McCarthy and Hemingway.

Both the body hit of a bad review and the brain faze of a very good one are dangerous. You just have to have your own sense of the work you've done, and trust it.

First lines:



"He tastes to her of coffee. In the morning, when he comes to wake her up."



"He watched the coast receding, the lights that were coming on in the late afternoon blinking and then dropping in the stretched distance."

"I wake early on these summer mornings, stirred by photons of light creeping between eyelashes, blazing through vermillion eyelids."

My Imaginary Life

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you..."

Mostly I have a general idea about what will happen but I rarely know how the novel will end as the characters tend to take over and do all sorts of unforseen things. I only have limited control over them once they become real to me.

Good thread - dashing out now - back later!

Nell wrote: "Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you..."

I usually have a general idea of some plot items I want to include but I don't create a story outline before starting. My process is similar to the one you describe - the characters take on a life of their own and the story grows along with them. It is almost like they exist in a parallel universe. I 'watch' them and write down what they 'say.'

Murdo Morrison
Roses of Winter

I usually do have an idea - for me, I tend to know the beginning and the end, with the middle being more fuzzy to me. Surprises do happen along the way, or inspiration happens at unexpected moments that may change the course of action, but I definitely outline. Without an outline, I tend to muddle around and go all over the place. That is very much true to my process and psyche in nearly everything, though. I don't really think fully unless I write it out, so outlining is a way for me to "think" as a character, if that makes sense.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

I've always seen a scene (especially the opening one) in my head. I do my best writing when the book is playing out in my head and I'm typing what's happening. Increases edits by the boatload though.

Russell wrote: "One of my books got slammed recently... Unfortunately, his review sticks to practically every website on the net and every time I spot it, I feel I deserve a right of reply..."

I think it's better not to reply. I used to belong to Bookcrossing years ago and when authors replied to bad reviews it usually looked sad and desperate.

Someone once said of The Golden Web that I'd ended it the way I did in order to sell the sequel, which was completely untrue. The truth was that I'd lived the book and needed some rest and recuperation before embarking on Three Magic Women.

I do now regret not waiting and publishing the two between the same cover though, because the comment was repeated over and over until it seemed verified.

By the way, I want to add, everyone's process is totally valid. It's pretty fun to hear how other writers go about writing. We all get to the same end result, no matter if we write upside down or in longhand or only in pink ink. :-)

Tina wrote: "By the way, I want to add, everyone's process is totally valid. It's pretty fun to hear how other writers go about writing. We all get to the same end result, no matter if we write upside down or i..."

I agree! Great note here, and it's true. Every writer has their formula, what works best for them. And as long as great stories keep coming out of those formulas, then we don't have anything to worry about.

I still like hearing how everyone writes, though. It's good to see how others handle the craft, get things done, and I've even acquired a few new tricks to try and speed along my own writing. Thanks, everyone!

Murdo wrote: "Nell wrote: "Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going ..."

Yes, sometimes I just get and idea, maybe three line and start writing sometimes it comes to nothing sometimes not.

Here are the first few paragraphs of Chapter One of my recently published novel "Jah na Sleep"
Tell me, does it make you want to read on? :)

His stirring dragged me out of sleep into a soundless night. I moved closer, pressing my back against his breastbone. My flesh quivered on contact with the soft, slightly ticklish crine. The downy hairs that reigned over his chest and abdomen had also reached the region of his shoulders. Vanguard filaments ventured even further down the columns of muscles flanking his ribcage; they threatened to someday collide with the cilia governing in the region of his buttocks. Perhaps in his senior years, the graying fleece might have achieved hairy hegemony. Already the tufts, nestled like snipers, were beginning to sneak out of his ears and the elf lock at his throat threatened to join ranks with his beard hairs, the reserve guard he shaved for now.

I curled myself into the curve of his torso and pressed tightly into his pelvis and thighs. He reached his arm further around, engraving me deeper into the warm hollow formed by his closing frame. I would have liked to have been absorbed completely, as by osmosis, and become one with his breathing, his breath, his life.

He whispered in my ear, teasingly, playfully: “Ehhh, la grosse, je t’aime!” Suddenly, a jolt fired through my nerve-endings; I remembered. Oh God, I remembered! Horrified, I pulled away, quickly reaching for the lamp chain. I tugged and turned to look. No. Not there; only a vague indentation, only a slight depression where he had lain. Disbelieving that it was just a dream, I slid my hand along the barely discernible, still warm hollow in the sheet.

http://www.jahnasleep.com

My published book needed no outline as it is a travel book, but I have done an outline for a novel that's on the back burner right now until I finish a couple more books.
The spy story I am working on should have had an outline. All my scribbled notes are confusing me. The whole book is written, but much of it is in note form. I have the beginning, the middle and the end but am not sure where to add all the "fill-in" notes.

Tina wrote: "By the way, I want to add, everyone's process is totally valid. It's pretty fun to hear how other writers go about writing. We all get to the same end result, no matter if we write upside down or i..."

So true! Although some of mine was green ink. It amazes me how many times a writer's process is similar and yet so different. My process can vary from idea to idea. Some I know right where it's going, sometimes I just have a vague idea. The fun for me is the journey no matter how it all got started.

I like to have theme, plot, characters, chapter outlines planned before I begin the actual writing. When I wrote Middle Time, I had the whole thing planned out,but it stuck half-way through. I added the modern bit, which was totally unplanned, but it all worked out in the end. Now I am on my second book, and have finished the structure and am on with the scene planning. Strangely I planned a whole sequel to Middle Time and when the structuring and synopsis was complete, with character arcs etc, realized, that I needed to write it as two books, so I am planning book 1, now.I think this one will stick.

As a non-fiction author I know exactly what I am going to write. During the process I have to complete research for veracity and permission from sources to include previously published articles. Of course, there are additions and deletions during editing, but for the most part I know what I want the reader to know and in which order. It is a different process than fiction, where the sky is the limit and you can let your imagination fly. For non-fiction I have to stick to the true facts.

When I start a new book, I have a fairly nebulouos idea of the arc of the story, maybe the 5 major plot points. I don't do an outline but just a list of 5 or 10 or 15 sentences of the pivotal points in the order I think they should come. Beyond that, I pretty much let it write itself, one sentence building on the last until it heads in one direction or another. It's all fairly undisciplined and organic, which is the way I like it. It gives the story and the characters the room to grow, and it keeps it fresh. When I wrote my spiritual fantasy, Goddess Rising, I often had NO idea what I was going to write when I sat down to it, and I often had no idea WHY I was writing a particular thing, but then later it all came together. It still amazes me how alive a story can be and how I can think I am creating it when it's pretty clear that it's creating itself!

I think it really depends on genre. I write historical fiction, so I like to have notes, research, plot lines, events etc in place.

Priya wrote: "I think it really depends on genre. I write historical fiction, so I like to have notes, research, plot lines, events etc in place."

Yes your right I have a roman novel on the back burner there is so much to know about them. They really were an organised bunch.

I'm constantly working on deadlines. By the time I actually start writing something new, I either have a contract, or have a good idea I'll have a contract. I won't write novels anymore without a contract. This means that I have to write an outline, usually about 30 pages (although my ST. Martin's Press book outline was only 6 pages), and submit it for consideration, sometimes with the first few chapters of the book. Working through my agent, this gets me a contract before I start.

This process has forced me to have an organized approach to my work. Yet even with the outline, my characters remain spontaneous. By the end of the novel, I've been true to the outline about 60% of the time. And that's okay with the publisher. They just want a warm and fuzzy that me the writer knows where he's going with the novel and that I can meet the deadline.

Wow, I'm late to this thread, but it's really fascinating. I like reading others' takes on the process.

So here are my answers to two of the questions:

"Do I ever just start writing to see where the story will go?"

No. I've never sat down to write a story I didn't know how it was going to end. Often, I know the beginning and the end, and the middle develops as I go, but I always know how I want it to end.

I outline before writing, although with my current book, I'm trying a new technique of just outlining three chapters at a time instead of the whole book before starting. That's giving me a bit more fluidity in the creation process.

Here's the first line of my recent release, STATE OF GRACE, a fantasy-thriller mashup available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Smashwords:

"Sara Wensley-James spurred the stolen horse, urging him to weave his way faster through the decaying trees in the hope of eluding her pursuers."

Awesome thread! Keep the answers and questions coming!

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Answering a long time after you asked, but I just found this thread.... I often start without knowing how the story will end. I usually have a few important characters and a list of likely scenes, and dive in from there.

The first book I wrote, The Death Contingency, began as a game. I knew how it would start and how it would end, but I had no idea how I was going to get the between done. I managed, but it took many rewrites and a great deal of learning on my part.

By the time I started Backyard Bones, I understood the importance of a time-line, critical for a mystery where you as the writer must know who knew what when, and an outline so you know where you are going in every chapter, but I still often leave a lot of room for exactly how a chapter is going to be written.

Most professional writers will tell you they need some sort of outline. The beginning writer, or the amateur will often feel that this stifles their creativity. But that's because they don't understand where the creativity happens.

You don't need to write out a detailed description of every scene, but you need to know, to a large extent, what is going to happen before you start to write. Things change along the way, but you need to know who the main characters are, how it starts, how it ends, and pretty much how you get there.

You are not tied to this plan, but it gives you a path.

The reason for this is that a story is not a random series of events written in a random manner. A story, whether short or long, has structure. There is a beginning, middle, and end. There are certain types of characters, and there is a certain form that all stories follow.

For the new writer, look at the following books:

Techniques of the Selling Writer

The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers

Throw in a book on style, like The Elements of Style, and you have everything you need to write.

Now all you gotta do is plan it out and put your caboose in a chair. You can wear all the black turtlenecks in the world, and sit at the cafe looking all pensive, but unless you type words on paper, you will never be a writer.

And to be a writer, you need to understand that it's a craft. There is structure and form and proper use of the language. Learn it, then do it.

Michael E. Henderson

The Ghost of Caroline Wald; a Ghost Story and Horror Novel

I, on the other hand, know a number of professional writers who don't outline their stories in advance. The advice I generally give to new writers is to write an outline and then be prepared to throw it away as soon as you realize it isn't working -- or for any other reason based on the more mature understanding you will gain as the write the story.

As for structure: It's not always something you plan in advance, although it may be, if that's the way that works best for you. For some writers the story develops organically. One thing leads to another, so it's not a random series of events. It's a harmonious whole where all the different parts work together.

Any method may take several drafts to get it right. Don't be afraid to experiment with your first drafts, to try different methods, but be honest with yourself and acknowledge when an experiment isn't working -- then try something else.

However, I will agree that language has structure and form and proper usage, which a writer needs to learn -- and even more than that, understand.

The first line of my novel Flocking :
He would have noticed her in any case:
If the place had been crowded to the rafters, say.

I have an outline, but it's in my head only. I don't write it down, but before I sit down to write a story I figure out how it will start, end, and some of the basics of how they will get there.

The most important thing for me is flushing out character backgrounds and personalities so I can write their story accurately. The only time I've used an outline is if I've hit a road block. It gets me back on course, gets the ideas flowing, and then it is soon tossed out the window.

And although I don't make a living at writing yet, I'm getting there and do consider myself a professional writer. I have two full length novels and a short story published with a small publishing house, and my third novel is out next month. It's all about what works best for you in my opinion, whether that is an outline or just flying by the seat of your pants.