Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I always work with an outline. Usually it begins as a rough idea of the plot, main things that will happen, then I break it up into days and chapters. But I don't always follow it perfectly; it's always changing as I write. Sometimes it's helpful when I find myself getting off track or spending too much time on certain scenes. I'll check my outline, find out what's supposed to be happening, and get myself back on point. Other times I have to purposefully veer away from the outline because something interesting has happened that I think I need to stick with. By the time I'm finished with the book, the outline is very polished. But while I'm writing, I'm the only one who can make any sense out of it.

I'm working on five books at the same time; only one wasn't really scripted. It's called the Antique Hunters, and was written off a very loose outline with in-depth character sketches, turning into a romantic comedy with which I'm rather happy.

Here's the first page:
In the sharp light of the squash court, Burton Trimble looked unwell.

He was breathing hard, his tummy straining against a white golf shirt. He’d leaned forward in the service box, hands on his knees and his weight on his thighs, racket in one hand, a small bead of sweat tracing the border of his slightly unkempt brown hair.

“Are you OK, mate?” asked his friend Stuart. He was ready to serve, but noticed Burton’s slump. “You don’t look good.”

Burton took another deep breath then straightened up, trying to keep a stiffer upper lip despite his fatigue. He blew out a heavy lungful of air. “Fine, fine. Let’s go.”

“Are you sure? Your pallor is ... well, you look clammy. Are you sure you shouldn’t sit down?”
Stuart was English, and therefore an expert on pale, clammy skin.

Flourishing his squash racket with unconvincing confidence, Burton said, “No, no. Don’t you worry. Just another sleepless night.”

“But Burton, you’re sweating like a horse...”

“Yes...”

“We haven’t even started playing yet.”

@L.H. I'm hooked! Great first page.

L.H. wrote: "...Stuart was English, and therefore an expert on pale, clammy skin..."

...Wrote a Canadian! I'm sure you get no more sunlight than we do on this side of the Atlantic...

For my first published work - , I actually had the ending in mind first. I just had to figure out how to get there, and then what to do after the climactic scene. The first line is, "Geneva Greyson removed one of her twin daggers from the throat of her enemy and watched him fall to the ground, wondering yet again what could have possibly possessed her people to land on this planet centuries ago."

For the book I'm working on now, I actually based the first section of it off a short I wrote for a group of friends almost a year ago. I don't remember exactly, but I think that was another situation in which the ending came to me before a lot of the other details, and I just had to figure out how to connect the dots. The plot for this one is FAR more complex, and I definitely needed to take some notes as I planned and went along. I actually wound up hearing about a free program called Storybook, and while I haven't been using it for every little thing, it has been coming in handy for organizing scenes and events.

Until I edit the hell out of it, the first sentence is, "The path through the trees was rocky and uneven, but while it was sometimes difficult to follow as it meandered through the forest, it remained one of Stephen's favorite routes for his afternoon strolls."

Jade wrote: "@L.H. I'm hooked! Great first page."

Thanks Jade! You should give me a critique at some point.

Steph wrote: "L.H. wrote: "...Stuart was English, and therefore an expert on pale, clammy skin..."

...Wrote a Canadian! I'm sure you get no more sunlight than we do on this side of the Atlantic..."

Waaaaaay more. It's cold here seven months of the year, but I'm very north. very cold, short days in winter, very loooong ones in summer, and the temps routinely get above 30 C in summer.

This is limited experience speaking, with one published Indie novel, The Duke Don't Dance, and two unpublished due out this fall. However,each of mine started with quote or a locale that provided a theme that the rest of the novel was built around. A line of graffiti became the title for "The Duke Don't Dance," a dank cellar for my soon-published "Jacob's Cellar" and an old man's musing for "Time is the Oven," my next. My slim portfolio has been well-received, but I think that there are also plenty of examples from established authors, where a core phrase, place or event is the anchor for the narrative, controlling what comes before and after. To me, finding that anchor is much more essential than trying to work forward from a snappy beginning or backward from a punchy ending.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

L.H. wrote: "...Waaaaaay more. It's cold here seven months of the year, but I'm very north. very cold, short days in winter, very loooong ones in summer, and the temps routinely get above 30 C in summer..."

Now I'm jealous. I've forgotten what the sun looks like. It's been raining here for what seems like weeks (ever since the local water authority announced a hosepipe ban, in fact). Wait, is that Noah going passed the window?

I like reading other writers' approaches to the outline/no outline question.

For me, I usually just start with an idea and dive in. I have an idea in my head of the general outline of the book, but only general. Usually, though, somewhere in the editing process I have to create a detailed outline (of what's already there, then fill in what's needed).

However, my first and so far only published book (The Ninja Librarian) didn't work that way at all. That's mostly because it's an episodic novel--a collection of short stories that came together as a novel. Each chapter was written and largely polished before starting the next, and I was sharing them as I wrote. I had no idea when I started that I'd be spending so much time in Skunk Corners or that the place had that much for a story to tell. Now I'm writing the sequel, with only slightly more of a plan.

Rebecca wrote: "I like reading other writers' approaches to the outline/no outline question.

For me, I usually just start with an idea and dive in. ..."

I'm a "no-outliner" and I discovered that the hard way. I've pulled "Catalina Eddie" apart and put it back together again quite a few :( times now. Next I need to chop out about half of the words, 'cause it's looong. All this due to outlining.

During the above looong process, I've done first drafts on three books. Each will become a series. By that time, I should be finished with my 110th cut on Catalina Eddie.

In sitting down and writing a piece straight away, I enjoy finding out what's going to happen next. And, so far, all the surprises have been good ones.

Rebecca wrote: "For me, I usually just start with an idea and dive in. I have an idea in my head of the general outline of the book, but only general.."

I'm much the same way. I have an idea for a plot line and a main character or two. I write a scene and then leave myself notes for later. Sometimes I use them; sometimes not.

I only want to have a general direction for the story so I'm not constrained. I'm often surprised the story goes a completely different direction than I thought it would.

I usually try to leave off in the middle of a scene or when I'm rolling. That way when I come back its easy to pick up again. I never finish a chapter and say 'that's a good day's work'. When I come back I go back into the story five or six pages and read to get the momentum back and to catch copy edits or other story issues. By the time I get to where I left off, I'm ready to crack the whip.

Also I keep a compendium open so I can keep notes on the characters, their appearance, traits, etc. Not an outline but a reference. Wrote a blog on the topic. http://bonnershouse.com/

NOT SO FAST JIMMMM!

Okay. I spoke too soon. Here's another piece to the puzzle--one I've been looking for and now I've found it. I highly recommend this one: Story Engineering by Larry Brooks. Stories have been told for as long as humans have been human. Larry has broken out "the essentials" into the Six Core Competencies of Story. Ya gotta have 'em all, or da teng won't work. Check this one out!!

Here's what's in the book description:

Story Engineering: Mastering the 6 Core Competencies of Successful Writing, by Larry Brooks

You'll learn to wrap your head around the big pictures of storytelling at a professional level through a new approach that shows how to combine these six core competencies which include:

Four elemental competencies of concept, character, theme, and story structure (plot)

Two executional competencies of scene construction and writing voice

The true magic of storytelling happens when these six core competencies work together in perfect harmony.

Jim wrote: "The true magic of storytelling happens when these six core competencies work together in perfect harmony."

If you can't tell a story, no amount of structure or a checklist isn't going to do much for you. Ever seen a beautiful paint by number picture?

Ken wrote: "Jim wrote: "The true magic of storytelling happens when these six core competencies work together in perfect harmony."

If you can't tell a story, no amount of structure or a checklist isn't going ..."

Ken, I couldn't agree more. I know you can hone your craft, but basically you can either write or you can't. I looked at a book recently, the work of writer who had told me much of their preparation, including detailed character profiles and charts and research and endless editing - but the finished product was one dimensional - a list of dialogue and events and description with no depth. I've seen more inspiring Facebook status updates - a great shame.

I do woodworking for a hobby. I make arts and crafts type furniture. I've been working with all the tools for years and can operate them efficiently and with some degree of accuracy and skill and still have all my fingers. There's quite a bit of involved joinery and some pretty expensive wood at risk.

I can read the books, the manuals, sharpen the tools to a potent edge and I can still improve and learn but I'm not going to be the artist that the Greene Brothers were. I can copy their stuff, use their influence but not create like the Greenes or Stickley or Sam Maloof. I see woodworking that makes me feel totally inadquate.

One thing I learned is trying to do too much or be too perfect often gives poor, overworked results. You can put a lot of shiny varnish on a clunky piece of work and all you end up with is shiny clunk.

Ken wrote: "One thing I learned is trying to do too much or be too perfect often gives poor, overworked results. You can put a lot of shiny varnish on a clunky piece of work and all you end up with is shiny clunk. "

Amen to that! The most difficult in writing is I think to stay faithful to one own' style. Sometimes, we want to please too much, or think this or that is what the reader/agent/publisher wants. But writing is very selfish process. The best pieces are those that the author wrote for him/herself.

Oh, and my first line, from RETURN TO CAER LON (coming soon on Amazon)
A loud bang erupted from the courtyard, instantly followed by furious yells of the aggressors and cries of pain from their victims.

Claude Dancourt

Jim wrote: "...Story Engineering: Mastering the 6 Core Competencies of Successful Writing, by Larry Brooks..."

On a similar theme, get hold of a copy of The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories. It's a fascinating read and makes a convincing case for there being certain stories that are engrained in our pysche. Booker breaks down each 'basic plot' into its essential elements and each one has its own rules. If you've ever read a novel that doesn't quite satisfy, then have a look at Booker's tome, analyse the novel again and you'll realise it's because the rules weren't followed. It's quite uncanny.

Thanks, Steph! I'm going there right now!

I checked out The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories, but I'll pass. I don't have the time or the desire to throw a book that thick agaisnt the wall for ticking me off. It might leave a hole.

The reviews that suggest he's sexist and thinks women should just be housewives is enough to enrage this woman. Anyway, it doesn't sound like he's saying anything different than what I've already read and disagreed with. Just because he provides lots of examples, doesn't mean he's right.

Diane and Steph,

For a more concise treatment of the subject (if I correctly understand the REAL subject under discussion), read Aristotle's POETICS. It's much shorter.

Russell

Thanks, Russell.

The best way to improve your writing, just like with every thing else in life, is practice and to actually DO it. No matter what a manual, or a teacher might say, I've yet to meet two writers who write exactly the same way. Find what works for you, and go for it.

A reader once asked me if I like to eat pickled onions as I write.

I said that I do not.

Diane wrote: "I checked out The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories, but I'll pass..."

I didn't pick up on the sexism aspect myself. It is a hefty book with a price tag to match; but, as a fiction writer, probably the best reference work I've ever bought.

Michael - I'm rather partial to pickled onions. Takes all sorts, I suppose...

I must revise (or at least amend) my earlier suggestion re "The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories." While I STILL believe that Aristotle's "Poetics" is a valuable read, I was intrigued enough by this exchange to look up Mr. Booker's opus...and boy, was *I* impressed! Not only with the description of this book, but also with some of his other titles (and, yes, credentials).

Thanks, folks, for the heads-up. I've now put it on my Amazon Wish List.

Russell

Sherri wrote: "The best way to improve your writing, just like with every thing else in life, is practice and to actually DO it. No matter what a manual, or a teacher might say, I've yet to meet two writers who w..."

What Sherri says! Don't get stuck in rewriting hell trying to please everybody! Someone somewhere will hate your book and someone somewhere else will love it. If you try to please everyone, you'll lose sight of your story, you'll lose your voice and you'll write like a million others instead of being YOU! :-)

From one author who suffers daily with depression and bipolar, the thought of releasing my baby on the world was among the most scariest of things to do.

Opening an already fragile mind to critique was frightening to say the least.

But it was the best decision I ever made. I receive so many good comments and constructive comments that have helped me improve as an author.

Readers have spurred me on in their desire to know what happens next.

They also spotted that my first editor did a bad job...

Yes, you open yourself to criticism, and you're scared, but take the bull by the horns, take a deep breath and press publish. You will not regret it!

First line...hmmmm...that's difficult.

Prologue: This, among others, is a tale penned by a wise old scribe named Vinchenza Aduramis, who began to chronicle the history of his home and surrounding planets known locally as Rinoch’s Belt.

Chapter One: Brothers Coinin and Marrok enjoyed a morning of fishing on Lake Arrom, and spent a lazy afternoon in relaxation by the water’s edge, listening to the waves rhythmically lap the shore.

I can't believe sixteen books have spawned from this one book. I think I'll be sixty years old by the time I've written them all.

The "Seven Basic" is on Kindle, which is a little less bulky then the hardback. For size alone, try The Company. Anyway, you can sample the thing on Kindle. See what you think. Now for the pickled onions . . .

Russell, I started the Kindle sample for "The Seven Basic..." and I'm hooked. However, I will admit to being and an anthropology major in school and a Jung fan. So all this resonates big-time with me.

I have a simple question for fellow Authors, Have you found Kindle to provide more sales then actual purchases or the real thing given Kindle being the hot thing right now?
Reason I ask is because soon my book will be available on Kindle so I'm really hoping to see a spike in sales and this does me well.

Justin wrote: "Have you found Kindle to provide more sales then actual purchases or the real thing given Kindle being the hot thing right now?"

given that it costs you nothing to go on Kindle, would you decline if we said there was no spike? Perhaps I'm not following the difference between sales and actual purchases.

Well, I hope so. I plan on launching everything on Kindle, maybe Nook. I won't be fronting some big nut on legacy publishers.

Justin wrote: "I have a simple question for fellow Authors, Have you found Kindle to provide more sales then actual purchases or the real thing given Kindle being the hot thing right now?
Reason I ask is because..."

you won't. Especially with your company and for the price you pay. Waste of money.

Jim wrote: "Well, I hope so. I plan on launching everything on Kindle, maybe Nook. I won't be fronting some big nut on legacy publishers."

Don't put all your eggs in Amazon's basket - they're not the only game in town (or in the world, if you'd like to think internationally)! :-)

My ebook is pretty much only selling on Kindle at this point, and sells slightly below the paperback sales. Not sure what I need to do to get it noticed on Nook, Smashwords, etc.

Jim, I didn't front anything for "a big legacy printer." I used CreateSpace.com and spent about $5 on a proof copy, though I do stock physical copies (at a very reasonable cost) so I can sell them at readings and events. That would of course be optional, but does greatly increase my exposure and thus my sales.

But to the original question, by all means go ahead with Kindle Direct. Also with Smashwords and any other ebook sales options, since they don't cost you and might generate sales.

Rebecca wrote: "Not sure what I need to do to get it noticed on Nook, Smashwords, etc."

Yeah. GETTING NOTICED! Fortunately or unfortunately, getting noticed is a major task for a writer - - assuming one want's their books to be noticed. Apparently, some don't really care. For the rest of us, that's a big issue. I know for a fact that there are some really great books out there and they aren't YET being noticed. What is it John Locke says? "Guess you haven't gotten lucky yet." He has a lot to say about getting noticed. Some call it "hyping your book." Okay. So what. You want readers? Do something: nifty covers, blurbs from famous writers, catchy titles. Actually, there are millions of folks out there who write and publish book reviews and author interviews. Look for them. Contact them. Participate on GR and Amazon boards. And mention your book to everyone you meet! A nudge? Maybe. Whaddaya gonna do? I have a long list of reviewers and interview site. Email me and I'll send it to you. But, hey, I'm no expert here, and I'm open to any ideas for getting noticed. But forget about standing on the corner wearing a clown suit.

Jim

Jim, funny you should mention the clown suit on the corner. . . I did a signing at a book store this afternoon. . . unfortunately, the first warm Saturday around here in weeks, if not months. I think six people came into the store all afternoon. The owner and I were considering if we needed someone doing like all those sign-wavers you see at tax time in front of the CPAs.

R, Yeah! I was just kidding before - - I'd do it; I'll wear the suit. Anything for a sale. By the way, check out my latest book. It's all about . . .

Just kidding there, too. STILL editing and rewriting.

Denise, I just got the Kindle sample for Net Switch. I'll give it a go. I get somewhat tentative regarding the really dark stuff - even noir. Having a tendency toward depression, I'm pretty careful. Oooooo. I do like Chic-cagah stories, Michael Mann, Crime Story episodes, etc. I'm currently reading The wrong Side of Dead by Jordan Dane. It's set in Chicago. Her preceding story was Evil Without a Face. Both dark and noir and dealing with Internet mischief and worse. I grew up near the windy city and consider it almost home.

Those Amazon boards can get a little rough on writers hawking their books, so play it a little bit cool.

Go Sox!

Yeah, as I understand it, it's uncool to hawk your books on those boards. But adding useful posts may lead some to look up who you are. I also had been recommended to post lists, reviews etc., with "author of 'The Ninja Librarian'" in my signature.

To be completely clear about the Amazon rules: authors can post as readers aywhere in the Amazon fora, but they are only allowed to promote or mention their own books in the "Meet Our Authors" forum. Even if someone in another book forum has asked for book recommendations that fit your book precisely, you can't drop it into the thread without violating the ToS.

You can self-promote in the MOA forum all you'd like.

You can link to your books in your profile, and hope that readers outside the MOA click on your profile.

Even with the restrictions, it's probably worth it to participate in the Amazon fora. The reasons for the anti-self-promo rule will become obvious after the second or third day you are there, at the latest.

Well I purchased the package so that my book can be converted into a Kindle so it should be happening any day or next week.
While two have said they don't think their will be a spike I asked that based off of general fact of a book being a Kindle and do Kindles tend to sell better than actual books, however given the fact that I myself will be promoting it i would assume it's up to me and where I post to see if my book gets a spike in sales. But I was hoping that just telling people it's available and Amazon shoppers see it maybe they will be tempted.
I honestly believe I will see a spike in sales based of my own promotion and the simple mention of my book now being available on Kindle, we shall see and I shall hope for the best, wish me luck!

I sell 3 times as many Kindle versions as paperback versions of 'Right Now Is Perfect'. Good luck Justin!

I'm getting ready to release the paperback addition. If I get one third the kindle sales and it costs me nothing, that's better than the proverbial poke in the eye.

Carol wrote: "I sell 3 times as many Kindle versions as paperback versions of 'Right Now Is Perfect'. Good luck Justin!"

Ah ha! see this is I was hoping to see and i hope to get the same results. :D

Ken,
The only cost is formatting for Kindle--which I did myself. For some genres Kindle editions far outsell paperback and the never go out of print. Good luck with your book!

Carol wrote: "Ken,
The only cost is formatting for Kindle--which I did myself. For some genres Kindle editions far outsell paperback and the never go out of print. Good luck with your book!"

Thanks. I've been on kindle for just about a year now and while sales aren't taking off they are steady and marginally better each month. As I am on KDP Select I have to remain exclusive for the e-book. Going createspace is not a conflict and let's me get into other venues. I'm formatted for the book but I need a little help with the cover (extending the spine and back cover). Waiting for my adobe literate daughter to come help me.

Good luck to all of us that spit in the eye of convention.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?"

No. Different authors work different ways, but my way is to have the key scenes written first, along with a very large number of notes, before even starting to write most of the stuff a reader will see.

When there are enough notes in the right order to tell the story, I go through a period of writing whichever scene note I am in the mood to write, and finally when they're all written up, the editing begins.

Since what I'm writing right now is too big for a single volume, I've concentrated on the first volumes: the first has been on sale a few months, the second is with my editor, and I'm working on the third. But the key scenes are there for all of them. I know where I am going, and I know how it will end. (The last word of the whole story is "drink".)

I know other writers and they work different ways, but this is the way that works for me.


Glenn wrote: "Hey, I've got an idea that will be fun and help all of us imagine that we're promoting our books:

What's the first line of your novel?"

Long long ago, after the ice had receded but before the myths that foreshadowed our history, a mother was arguing with her daughter.


(It's a stone-age historical fantasy.)