Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire discussion

Time for me to do a little rant. In this book Hermione organizes a group called S.P.E.W. (The Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare) in which she advocates that house elves ought to be free, get paid, have time off, get pensions, etc. As great as this may sound to some this kind of reminds me of the way celebrities or others of the “Cultural Elite” try to tell people how to vote or think. It’s always annoying to me how so many think that just because they have a bit of fame or money or power that they know better than we do what we should think and what we should want. House elves are not people and it’s a bit arrogant of Hermione to assume that she knows better than they do what is best for them and what they ought to desire in their lives. Now, if her aims were simply to stop wizards from mistreating or abusing their house elves than that would be different but this is a case of her trying to tell house elves that there’s something wrong with them for not thinking like and being like humans. Thoughts on this anyone?

I don't think Rowling agrees with Hermione's efforts but demonstrates how absurd and over-the-top she gets. I take it as a little social satire on campaigns that end up doing more harm than good and people who go a little crazy with their causes. I don't think the reader is supposed to full-heartedly agree with Hermione, like you said think some changes are good but not the extent she wants. As far as the cultural elite go, whenever they open their mouth to support a cause, candidate, what have you, it is the biggest turn off to me. It almost makes me more opposed than supportive.

You make an excellent point. I hadn’t really thought about it that way. I guess that makes more sense to think of it as Hermione getting a bit carried away. Thanks for your comment.

I agree with you. Hermione is so over the top that its just a joke to everyone, well except her. In fact it actually hinders them, rembember they get kicked out of the kitchen because of her tirades

It is just another case of thinking one knows what is best for others without finding out all they can about the situation first. Hermoine wasn't raised in the Wizard/Witch world, and the only examples she really had of treatment of house-elves were the Malfoys treatment of Doby, Sirius' treatment of Kreacher and the Crouch's treatment of Winky. None of the three elves were treated anywhere near what I would consider humane.
It is similar to the politics and people voting for a certain party because they belong to it, instead of finding out where the nominee stands on issues, or what the issue is actually about. Same thing goes for the celebrities that press their "charity" on people. Fine with me if they know what they are talking about, have physically participated in the fight, but it is a real put off when they are obviously just trying to look good to everyone.
I would say working towards helping a cause is good, living for it (especially with being misinformed) and becoming a fanatic about it, not so much.

Hermione just gets on my nerves a lot. Not just in this case but pretty much all the way throug the books. You make a good point. The house elves were happy they way they were. Yes, some wizard and witches and were taking advantage of them, but Hermione went too far trying to change things that they didn't want changed. They were happy working without pay and she should realize that not everyone is going to think in the way she does. It might bother her, but if they are happy that way then she really can't and doesn't have the right to tell them to that way of thinking is wrong.

I completly agree. The whole spew thing was my least favorite part of the series. It really gets on my nerves when some person or group thinks they have all the right answers for everyone else. The elves were effing happy why couldn't she just leave well enough alone.

I think that's just her personality, she thinks its her job to help everyone. I think she was just trying to give them a choice in their lives, not just follow whatever the wizards say.

I agree with Juliet and Everley.

I don't think she was trying to tell them what was best for them. I think the point was they were entitled to rights, not to force them to take those things. I mean, people generally get vacation time, benefits, days off, etc. But no one is forced to take those things, they're just entitled to them.
And while I agree with what seems to be most people's opinion - that it got a little old - I don't think it was a bad thing for her to undertake.

When I read it, I felt that it was meant to be a little humorous. I mean, the name of the "organization" was SPEW! Clearly, the reader wasn't meant to take it all too seriously.

Hermione was right in her desire to help the house elves. It was how she went about it that was wrong. Her desire to help others, though, is an important part of her personality and, that, I think (besides adding some much needed humor to the story) was the point Rowling was trying to make.

I agree with Kristen. I was never under the impression that Hermione was trying to tell them what was best, but I could be wrong because it's been a few years since I've read the book. I do remember that I didn't really care that much about it, whether it was meant to be taken seriously or not. I was kind of upset that it wasn't in the movie though just because it's such a big part of who Hermione is and how she deals with things.

I get turned off by celebrities telling me how to live my life too, like they are the shining example. Whatever. I was annoyed with Hermione like most of the people on this thread.

Although, I do think that Rowling was trying to make a subtle statement about human/civil rights through Hermione, authors can be tricky like that.

My thoughts:"If it's not broke don't fix it." and "Just leave me alone and let me live my life."

I liked Hermione and her S.P.E.W. movement. It was probably put there for comic relief, but I thought that it went well with Hermione’s character. Hermione was a victim of prejudice at Hogwarts because she was from a muggle family. It made since that she would reach out to a group that she believed were the victims of the same prejudice. Hermione did get a bit over the top with her S.P.E.W. campaign, but I read it as though she was seeing prejudices against non-wizards/witches and she knew it was wrong, but she didn’t quite know how to express that. In later books she was still an advocate for equality among magical creatures but she was less abrasive about it.

I liked the SPEW campaign that Hermione brought up, I definitely agree with how House-elves are mistreated and abused. In my opinion, the reason why she was being so forceful was because House elves haven't really known any better, they are so used to the idea of working for someone else they think it is something like a sin to be free. I agree about it being Hermione's personality, she really doesn't like to see any creature hurt such as the House Elves and even Kreacher who didn't like her in the beginning.

Hina(Bow ties are cool) wrote: "I liked the SPEW campaign that Hermione brought up, I definitely agree with how House-elves are mistreated and abused. In my opinion, the reason why she was being so forceful was because House elve..."

It wasn't that the house elves didn't know any better - it's that they LIKED working for people. That's what they were made to do. It's their purpose. Yes, some of them get mistreated, but they actually prefer that than dying on the side of the street because they got "fired" and can't find anyone else to work for.

I liked the SPEW campaign at first, but honestly; if the house elves are happy (which most of them were) then let them be happy, without bringing in campaigns like SPEW which offends them.

I thought it was cute. Then it got annoying. Then the House Elves didn't like it so I thought she would stop. But she just kept trying to tell them what to do and what they should want. That is not cool. LOVE HERMIONE, THOUGH!

Kerri wrote: "I get turned off by celebrities telling me how to live my life too, like they are the shining example. Whatever. I was annoyed with Hermione like most of the people on this thread.

Although, I do..."

Very true, it may have been her own little plug for civil rights. But as far as your "If it's not broke don't fix it." idea, that's kind of the point. To her it was "broken". She saw a group of individuals being enslaved and abused and set out to stop it.
People need to stand up for their beliefs even if others think they're wrong. If no one ever stood up for things like this, we'd still have slavery in America for one thing. I'm guessing a whole lot of slave owners in early America saw nothing wrong with having slaves - they saw it as the way things are supposed to be. And many of the slaves, although maybe not happy with their situation, accepted it.
However once freed, they didn't have to stop what they were doing, but they now had the choice and the rights not to be owned or abused and to receive payment and benefits for their work.

But I also agree with whoever said the whole point was mainly to add humor. If not, she probably would have given it a different name :)

Yep that's true. Once house elves are freed they then can choose what to do so they don't feel forced to do something they don't want to do like Dobby.

^^ Yes, exactly. I'm in favour of S.P.E.W.

I LOVE SPEW!!!!!

I think the whole spew thing has to do with how Hermione doesn't think that the way the house elves are being treated is right. Sure they see nothing wrong with it but then again we never really know whats best for us. I mean Dobby was given freedom and he loved it so whats not to say the rest would too. Ok, now I will say Hermione went alittle over board with it but if spew existed I would definitely be a member.

she got what she wanted so SPEW made a difference so it wasn't a waste of time and money and I totally suport it

Hermione also took S.P.E.W to the next level by working on it in the Ministry.

YAH!

Gone With the Wind tell us that slaves were just as happy being what they were as the house elves. So why did north bother to free them? I wonder, what difference would it make if I had a servant at hand right now?
Not that I completely agree with Hermione either. This question is way more complicated than simply being right or wrong in wanting to free them.

There are a lot of problems with SPEW. The first being that declaring slavery wrong isn't really that bold of a statement. Not a lot of people need to have that lesson taught to them. So that angle of it just makes it a little unnecessary. Then you toss in the fact that as it turns out the elves really love being slaves, which makes for a really weird situation and kind of makes me wonder what exactly Rowling was trying to get at. And finally you have Hermione's attitude toward the differing opinion of the house elves, taking an extremely paternalistic stance in that she knows better than the 'savages' how they should live their lives which makes one wonder if Rowling is decrying or applauding imperialism. In the end it's the only real mar on what is otherwise my favorite of the HP books.

Fadhilah wrote: "Well...the SPEW idea made me annoyed...what actually made me a little bit 'dislike' Hermione. I know she just wants to tell everyone that mistreating house elves aren't right but anyways the house ..."

not all of them!

i'm not saying that i agree with Hermione, but i do see shere she is coming from. even though everone thinks that she is being unfair to the house elves, her heart is in the right place. she wants the house elves to know what it feels like to be treated like an equal. she only knows of people who treat there house elves like slaves. she doesn't know of people who treat their house elves nicely. that's why i find it hard to get mad at Hermione. i actually think it is kind of sweet.

And they are being treated horribly. Most of the ones that DONT work at Hogwarts. She had a point. She wanted to make the wizarding world a better place to live. See how that effect had. Harry was nice to Kreacher and Kreacher told him what he wanted to know. Sirius was rude to Kreacher and Kreacher got involved in a plan to get the prophecy. There was already enough bad things going on, so why not treat house elves better? Hermione wanted to so she did

So, here's a question for those who think Hermione should have just minded her own business, WHY???
Ok, so the elves didn't mind being slaves who were completely at their master's mercy as far as how they were treated. Does that mean it was ok to leave them that way?
They didn't know any better. Things were the way they were and they were contented that way.

Think about it this way, a baby is born to a psycho path who locks them in a room and from time to time shows affection, but the majority of the time ignores or even abuses them. That child very well may be relatively 'happy' because they don't know any other way.
I don't think any decent person would tell a 'nosy' outsider to butt out if they were trying to get that child the rights they deserve. Even if they go to that kid and tell them what they want to do. He might be insulted by the idea, but does that mean it's good to leave him there?
The decent thing to do is to give him the option to have a better life. To be treated a whole lot better.
And if he decides to reject it after having the option(when he's old enough, of course), that would be his choice.

^^ Agreed.

is that supporting Hermione? Srry, I dont really get it.

Sort of. It's supporting what she was trying to do, not necessarily the part where she was shoving it down everyone's throats all at once.

she's just trying to help!

i totally agree with u, arti, she was just trying 2 help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok Firstly its just a book. Secondly SPEW just shows that nothing is as simple as being black and white. As Sirius says the world isn't made up of Good people and death eaters, we are all a mixture of both good and bad and every situation is complex and isn't black and white. I think the SPEW thing was A) comic relief. B) about Hermione's need to protect others from discrimination -she understands this full well being a muggle born witch and C) is a commentary that despite being the 'good guys' even witches and wizards can be discriminatory and have aspects about them and the community that we do not like. The goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix are littered to references of how bigoted the wizarding community are to goblins, giants and elves.

I love the fact that Hermione is so passionate in her belief, but she's just a kid so is learning how to express her passion and desire to create change for the better

oh dear I seem to have gone a bit fanatical about HP, but I really do love the series.

What was I saying about it just being a book lol at myself

Fadhilah wrote: "yes, but advice needs manners, not forcing"

she wasn't forcing!

i agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

????????????????????????????

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

Fadhilah wrote: "But she was irritating people with her 'speech'. I kind of agree with Hermione but her way of telling people is wrong...to me."

NOT

yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!! exactly arti

i wrote that Whoo comment for yours

thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i guess

:)

XD

lol