Katelyn’s Comments (group member since Jan 07, 2016)

Katelyn’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Sascha wrote: "As a guy you have to confront your own involvement with patriarchy and you have to question society and its norms. You have to critically reflect the way you are part of this society."

The same thing goes for women :)

Adam wrote: "If I hit you once it's not your fault. If I do it again you're an idiot. And of course I'm way worse than you, but you have no excuse to accept that. If you're not strong enough in order to appreciate yourself, that's your problem."

First of all, even in Western culture, there are far more systemic issues that contribute to a victim's inability to come forward. For example, a mother who is being abused by her partner may feel that it is her duty to her children to remain because without him, she won't be able to feed her family. Women and children make up an overwhelming majority of the impoverished in the U.S. If we were to achieve greater equality in job opportunities and pay, it might be more feasible to suggest a woman take responsibility in her inability to leave an abusive partner, but that still doesn't account for emotional, psychological, and other issues and damages.

Furthermore, your comment does not take into account instances of "random" violence over which a woman has no control. Violence happens everyday in public, not just in the home.

Finally, women in societies that do not have laws in place condemning domestic violence, spousal rape, etc., may face even greater violence and even death when they defy any man.

Kandarp wrote: "It's tough to make them realise that. Not without force or punishment I said. And personally I think punishing them will make them hate females more. People understand things that are related to th..."

I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying. But regardless of what they will gain from being punished, if a law has been broken, they should face the consequences of their actions. We can't neglect to punish men who do wrong by women just because "well, they won't learn anything from it so what's the point?" And in societies that do not have laws against this type of violence, I think one of the main goals of feminism is to ensure that women in those societies can be protected, hopefully through working toward a shift in policy there.

shaq wrote: "Some really brilliant and thought provoking points made here so far, I couldn't be more happier with the input. The general consensus seems to be that the title doesn't hold as much weight as the a..."

Yeah, I think that's definitely a concern. And that has been an issue recently with the rising concept of "white girl feminism," which refers to feminists who neglect to be intersectional, meaning they fight for the basic rights that are relevant to themselves, usually street harassment, pay gap, etc., while ignoring or simply continuing blissfully unaware of the more dire challenges faced daily by women of color, transgender folks and the rest of the LGBT community, the disabled, etc. Particularly when prominent women neglect these issues, they receive flack from others in the feminist movement because it is perceived as a threat to its overall legitimacy.

But I also think that's a problem no matter what it is you are advocating... I think we are all responsible for people and things beyond ourselves. It's super intimidating. But also kind of wonderful, I think.

Kandarp wrote: "After reading all this my impudent wit came to the most stupidest conclusion ever, Feminism exist because we say it exist? The more loudly we shout Feminism, rally people to participate in it, the ..."

The problem is that for many people, fighting individually is not feasible for a variety of reasons. Women all over the world are threatened with violence and even death for speaking up. If those of us with the means do not come together to support them, how else will their quality of life improve?

Malala is just one example, merely a girl when she was shot for standing up for her desire to continue her education. Thankfully she survived, but many others have not.

Furthermore, the reason feminism exists is indeed because we say it exists. But we say it exists because we use it as a way of combatting gender discrimination. Disavowing feminism will not make gender discrimination go away, but working together as part of a movement definitely can, and I believe that it someday will.

Lee wrote: "i hope this book will be read by everyone in here very soon, so my feminist power will indeed flow in everyones bloodstream....:)"

I love that quote.

Lee, are you familiar with the play Wings by Arthur Kopit? I saw it about 6 years ago, so I don't remember it all that clearly, but I remember enjoying it. It is written, more or less, from the point of view of the stroke victim (female main character).

Adam, you have a good grasp on why gender equality has been so difficult to achieve!

Firstly, you seem to reference mostly job and pay equality in the examples you give, but issues like violence against women, taking place all over the world, is not something that you can claim if achieved would in any way negatively affect men. While you can abstractly make an argument that more jobs for women = fewer jobs for men, issues like violence do not fit into that equation at all.

Also, copied from another post that I wrote on another topic:

"I'd like to point out the ways that feminism is not only about women, but about how gender discrimination in all of its forms should be eradicated. While the term comes from a desire to focus on women, this is because of the ways in which gender discrimination disproportionately affects women. But it does go both ways.

Sexism also creates what might be termed toxic masculinity. The stereotyped, idealized masculine body/mind is a problem for all men, forcing them to adhere to certain ways of being and behaving. This is a problem both for men and further contributes to sexism toward women. It also reinforces heterosexual and cisgender superiority, meaning that queer men and transgender individuals will be very deeply affected by standards of masculinity."

For more, that thread is:

What about men?

I think the potential for this group to create a global feminist solidarity to be incredibly inspiring. Thus far, I've only seen discussions that are polite and conducted with utmost respect. People seem comfortable asking questions here that perhaps they wouldn't in other venues. We can show the world that the stereotype of the angry, aggressive feminist is false by continuing to foster a warm, welcoming, informative, and kind community.

Ryan wrote: "If I have learned anything from studying 1000s of years of human history, it is this:
1. People never change; not in 8000 years have we changed.
2. Social change happens over generations, not a fe..."

Ryan, I'm a bit confused because it seems to me (and I have studied history quite broadly as well) that many of your points contradict one another.
For example...
#1 and #3 - Through development of technology, humans have changed both culturally and intellectually in very significant ways.
#2 and #6 - If we do not form political movements, how do we affect generational change? This is why we think of feminism as having "waves" rather than as separate movements.

I'm not entirely sure what your list has to say about feminism, whether you mean it as support for the cause or if you think it is futile. I'm curious about how you meant it to come across!


And:

Re: Humanism

Humanism is already an established philosophy with a long history. It is defined as a recognition of individual human agency rather than divine beings, dogma, and superstition. Basically critical thinking and evidentiary ideas rather than faith and religion. While this is certainly not at odds with feminism, it has an entirely different basis with an established history and literature. Therefore, I find calls for changing the title of the feminist movement to humanism to be problematic because they reveal that opponents of the former term are rather misinformed.

Erin wrote: "On paper, it may be illegal to not hire me for a job because I am a woman unless the job specifically requires a man (such as a theatrical role). *Proving* that the reason they didn't hire me was because I am a woman is another thing entirely and if a potential employer is smart, they won't ever come out and say that it was gender discrimination. They will claim the candidate they hired was more qualified, etc., and you have no access to evidence to claim otherwise."

Also, there have been studies that show that employers tend to "hire in their own image," meaning that when there is already a gender (or race, socioeconomic, etc.) bias in the workforce, there are subconscious ways in which that bias is maintained. An employer may not even realize that he or she is hiring (or not hiring) someone for biased reasons. This depends on the industry, of course, but most of the highest-paying, prestigious, and envied positions are in industries dominated by white, cisgender, heterosexual men.

Chloe wrote: "So, instead of saying that feminist issues westerners face don't matter, I think society (as a whole) should collectively tackle each problem that threatens the fight for equality. No matter where it occurs, sexism and unequal treatment should be called out upon and addressed in a manner that can lead to a progression and change in attitudes to men and women."

Plus, as Western women achieve greater equality, therefore power and status, political influence, etc., we can do more for women globally.

In addition to everyone else's fantastic answers, the OP's prompt neglects to acknowledge same-sex parents and single parents. There are those who still (incorrectly) believe that these types of families are inferior to those formed through heterosexual coupling. These people would also agree that gender roles are required for proper childrearing or even simply successfully maintaining a household. So keep in mind that when you suggest that gender roles are required for this reason, you are also questioning if it is possible for any type of "non-traditional" family to succeed.
EDIT: Must've missed the very end of Alyssa's comment. Glad I'm not the only one to be thinking in this direction!

Not to mention the matriarchal societies that exist now and have throughout history. In these cases roles are either flipped, or they are distributed in ways that do not resemble gender roles as they are constructed in Western culture.

Anthony wrote: "Was just wondering if this group is open to men as well? I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, and I know that the description says the group is open to everybody. But seeing as how this is ..."

In addition to everyone else's encouragement, I'd like to point out the ways that feminism is not only about women, but about how gender discrimination in all of its forms should be eradicated. While the term comes from a desire to focus on women, this is because of the ways in which gender discrimination disproportionately affects women. But it does go both ways. Copy and pasting from a reply I wrote in another thread:

Additionally, I just want to make mention of how sexism also creates what might be termed toxic masculinity. The stereotyped, idealized masculine body/mind is a problem for all men, forcing them to adhere to certain ways of being and behaving. This is a problem both for men and further contributes to sexism toward women. It also reinforces heterosexual and cisgender superiority, meaning that queer men and transgender individuals will be very deeply affected by standards of masculinity.

For more, that thread is:
Is Feminism Still Relevant?

Vivien wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I've seen a lot of talk about gender inequality in the group so far, and a lot of talk about 'injustices' faced by women. In short, I've seen a lot of generalized statements that hav..."

Yes! The gendering of everything is a real problem. And this further contributes to the wage gap, in that, beyond the problem of achieving equal pay for equal work, labor itself is gendered, and most work gendered "female" is poorly compensated despite its value in outcomes for society.

@Dada: Yes, excellent example. Thanks for the link!

I agree that there is definitely a hierarchy of issues that need to be addressed by the feminist movement, such as the ones you've brought up here. That being said, just because one issue is understood to be "more important" than another, doesn't necessarily mean the "less important" issues should be abandoned. I think this group is itself evidence that there are people all over the world who are thinking about these issues, making it possible for us to find ways to divide and conquer, so to speak.

The key to your concerns, in my opinion, is to make sure that feminism is intersectional. While I may not live in the Middle East, I can still advocate and raise awareness of the problems they face. There are also issues of ethnocentrism tied up in all of this, but I think for the purposes of this discussion, I'll leave it at that for now.

Regarding rape culture, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment. Statistics have shown often that the number of false rape accusations is approximately equal to false reports of other crimes, and yet we only seem to stigmatize false rape charges. Of course, accusing someone of any crime that they did not commit is horrendous, and should be combatted. But on the flip side of that, victims of sexual violence are often ignored, pressured, disregarded, and blamed for the crimes committed against them. It is not an easy thing to bring forth charges of sexual assault or abuse, but why should anyone be more ashamed reporting a rape than any other crime? The answer lies in our society's attitudes about sex, virginity, womanhood, and the feminine/masculine binary. All of these contribute to what has been termed "rape culture." Furthermore, prison rape is an issue that disproportionately affects men of color, and is often ignored because the victims are themselves convicted of crimes. This is also evidence of rape culture and how it affects men as well as women (plus men outside of prison are sexually assaulted and even less likely to report). Sexual violence should never be tolerated, regardless of the form it takes and who the victim is.

Additionally, I just want to make mention of how sexism also creates what might be termed toxic masculinity. The stereotyped, idealized masculine body/mind is a problem for all men, forcing them to adhere to certain ways of being and behaving. This is a problem both for men and further contributes to sexism toward women. It also reinforces heterosexual and cisgender superiority, meaning that queer men and transgender individuals will be very deeply affected by standards of masculinity.

There's plenty more to say, but I hope this makes it clear why I believe feminism is absolutely still a relevant movement!

First I'd like to just say that I am overwhelmed and thrilled about the creation of this global community, and I am so looking forward to its growth!

I wanted to put forth some thoughts about how book discussions might be organized and then find out what everyone else thinks about how we can accomplish open, thoughtful, and diverse discussion. I am sure that Emma has plans for how to organize this group, so I of course mean no disrespect in making suggestions, but because this community is already so collaborative, I thought it would be worthwhile to think about this ahead of time in preparation for the last week of January when we discuss Gloria Steinem's My Life on the Road.

Already this group has grown astronomically and discussion topics are accumulating hundreds of replies (which is absolutely wonderful). As a result, I worry that when we begin to discuss the books, it will make it almost impossible to have a coherent discussion, and we won't all be able to contribute in ways that feel satisfying or fulfilling. I've never had moderation ability in a group on Goodreads, but based on my experience moderating other forums, I imagine that there are ways to create folders and sort topics? Perhaps someone else can offer some insight on that.

I have a couple of basic ideas. Perhaps:

1. A topic where people who have previously read the book can post ideas of "Things to consider while reading" at the beginning of the month, to guide new readers through the work.

2. Organization of discussion through topics based on chapters, questions, themes, etc. These could be chosen by Emma (and moderators) based on suggestions from the rest of us (that can be submitted in another topic).

I think this might make discussion more manageable and will hopefully allow all of our voices to be heard. I fear that without some organization, threads will pile on top of one another, and people will post thoughts without responding to others. I believe I am not alone in my desire for us to participate in dialogues that foster new ideas and understandings of the material at hand!

Does anyone have any ideas to add?

Thanks again, Emma, for your work with the UN and beyond and for creating a space for us to work together to promote feminism as an important and urgent cause!

Some I'd like to suggest:

1. The Modern Girl Around the World: Consumption, Modernity, and Globalization ed. Alys Eve Weinbaum
2. The Straight State by Margot Canaday
3. Only Paradoxes to Offer: French Feminists and the Rights of Man by Joan Wallach Scott
4. Gender and Jim Crow by Glenda Elizabeth Gilmore
5. Practicing Modernity: Female Creativity In The Weimar Republic by Christiane Schönfeld
6. The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
7. Women, Race, and Class by Angela Davis
8. Gender Trouble by Judith Butler
9. Bodies That Matter by Judith Butler
10. Negroland: A Memoir by Margo Jefferson
11. Crow After Roe: How "Separate But Equal" Has Become the New Standard in Women's Health and How We Can Change That by Robin Marty and Jessica Mason Pieklo
12. Redefining Realness: My Path to Womanhood, Identity, Love & So Much More by Janet Mock
13. Playing the Whore: The Work of Sex Work Melissa Gira Grant
14. Girls to the Front: The True Story of the Riot Grrrl Revolution by Sara Marcus
15. Orange Is the New Black: My Year in a Women's Prison by Piper Kerman
16. Exile & Pride: Disability, Queerness, & Liberation by Eli Clare
17. Without a Net: The Female Experience of Growing Up Working Class by Michelle Tea
18. Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic by Alison Bechdel
19. A Cup of Water Under My Bed: A Memoir by Daisy Hernández
20. Feminism and Affect at the Scene of Argument: Beyond the Trope of the Angry Feminist by Barbara Tomlinson
21. Songs in Black and Lavender: Race, Sexual Politics, and Women's Music by Eileen M. Hayes
22. Gaga Feminism: Sex, Gender, and the End of Normal by Jack Halberstam
23. Changed for Good: A Feminist History of the Broadway Musical by Stacy Wolf
24. A Feminist Ethnomusicology: Writings on Music and Gender by Ellen Koskoff

A lot of these are books I've read for classes that I'd be interested in rereading, or I've only read parts of, and others that are on my to-read list. I'll probably edit as I think of more :)