Katelyn’s Comments (group member since Jan 07, 2016)

Katelyn’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

It's exciting to see so many new members joining us for this book. Welcome welcome!

And to add on to what Meelie has said, please remember that this is a global bookclub, and our members are from many different cultural backgrounds, speak different native languages, all ages, etc. and this on top of the usual miscommunication that happens over the internet can lead to misunderstandings. We ask that members are patient with one another and assume best intentions. As such, we hope that you will consider this before accusing other members of hostility or jealousy, and if you sincerely believe that they are being unkind, please message a moderator (as Meelie said).

I'm only partway into the book (and thoroughly enjoying it so far!), but the thing that has stood out to me from the beginning is the incredible cover.

Based on what I've read until this point, I think it really captures the whimsy and irreverance that I'm coming to expect from Thom's writing.

I thought it might be fun to discuss the cover design!
Just some questions I have:
- How does a cover impact your book choice?
- How does a cover influence the expectations you have for a book before you start to read?
- How does the cover of Fierce Femmes impact your reading experience?
- Or in what ways does it reflect the content?
- What are some of your favorite book covers and why?

Benarji wrote: "Is that a threat, Katelyn? I suggest that you make your threat to count cause I'll never change to fit the bookclub. Maybe that's your ideology of feminism. So I'll take your advice into considerat..."

I believe I was quite clear that it was a warning. No need to change your views to fit the book club, as we are open to robust debate here, but we do expect our members to conduct themselves with maturity. Insulting other members is against our rules, and if you are unable to follow our rules, that is on you and has nothing to do with the moderation team's leadership capabilities. You're welcome to see yourself out, but if you continue to insult other members, we'll go ahead and do it for you.

Charles, I agree with much of what you've said, but want to push back on the argument you're making that is borderline biological determinism (if I've understood you correctly). While there are certainly some jobs that may be easier for men due to muscle mass and other physical characteristics, that does not mean that women are incapable of them entirely. And more importantly, this is frankly irrelevant for most jobs.

And I'm not really sure what you're arguing when you talk about women talking at work? I find that pretty sexist.


Benarji, I was not offering advice. I am a moderator here, and if you continue to insult other members in this fashion, you will be banned. We are open to discussing different views here, but we will not tolerate disrespect. So again, please do not insult other members. It is not advice. It is a warning.

Benarji, the "social stereotype" that you refer to in your most recent post (Message 25 of this thread) is a perfect example of how patriarchy negatively impacts women's job prospects. I'm glad you agree!

And as for your suggestion that we "Raise better quality women" and "Educate women on leadership qualities", these are great examples of what feminism tries to accomplish, although I'd add that we'd like to raise better qualities in all people, not just women.

Also, please don't call other members "garbage trucks". I get the sense that you were using metaphor but it comes across quite rude.

Wow, good work, Agnes! I applaud your deep dive here.

Benarji, there are also studies that show that individuals are less likely to pursue certain career paths and/or succeed in said careers if they have not been shown that others with whom they identify have succeeded in those areas. In this way, the lack of women (and other minorities) at the "top" in various sectors creates a cyclical disadvantage.

It's not only about perception of women pursuing jobs, or the very surface-level equality offered to women that allows them to apply for said jobs. The problem is with the systemic forces that prevent women from pursuing and succeeding in those areas in the first place. For example, various programs that work to give girls better exposure to STEM fields have drastically increased the numbers of women pursuing those careers and succeeding in them.

Patriarchy favors men and masculinity. Period.

Benarji wrote: "What's wrong with patriarchy? Is it the cool thing to do as a feminist, to hate patriarchy? The male species is a member of the human race. You can't take them out of the equation, just because you..."

Patriarchy does not just refer to men in power, which is not in and of itself a problem. Patriarchy refers to the systemic power imbalance between genders that favors men over other genders, excluding them from power and creating unequal circumstances in everyday life. That's why it's a problem.

Hi everyone, in the future we can share these kinds of links in the Pay It Forward thread to make the discussion board more focused on discussion of the book. This can also promote an environmentally friendly approach to sharing secondhand books! :)

Hi Jennifer,

Thanks for the recommendation. In the interest of organization, we do not allow individual threads for book suggestions. You can suggest it for the group by following the directions on the "How to Suggest a Book" thread.

Additionally, you can suggest it in relevant book lists in the book suggestion folder. Those lists are based on subject matter, genre, etc. You can start your own list if you don't see one for a particular subject or genre already, but please check first, as we will remove duplicate threads.

Locked and Archived

No need to delete, I think it's appropriate in this folder as well. I just want to make sure we get all these books on the bookshelf too!

If they're not already on our bookshelf, please feel free to also add these to the How to Suggest a Book thread!

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks for the recommendation. In the interest of organization, we do not allow individual threads for book suggestions. You can suggest it for the group by following the directions on the "How to Suggest a Book" thread.

Additionally, you can suggest it in relevant book lists in the book suggestion folder. Those lists are based on subject matter, genre, etc. You can start your own list if you don't see one for a particular subject or genre already, but please check first, as we will remove duplicate threads.

Locked and Archived

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Lujain! I feel especially drawn to the problem of visibility—it's a double-edged sword, isn't it? The point you make about women who choose to wear the hijab is so significant, and I can't imagine the pressure experienced by women who feel as though they must "represent" an entire group of people as a result of that choice. I think this is a place where we can build coalitions between oppressed groups, as I suspect this pro/con visibility issue is something experienced by others as well. I suggest this not to divert attention from issues faced by Muslim women, but to spark empathy and find connections.

I'm a big fan of the Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie TED talk you mentioned, it's something that has stuck with me for years and I think of it often.

Here are some readings I can recommend from a course I took two years ago about anger and race:

Roxane Gay, Who Gets To Be Angry?

Lisa Feldman Barrett, The Varieties of Anger

Audre Lorde, A Poem for Women in Rage

Mychal Denzel Smith, The Rebirth of Black Rage



Books and articles:

bell hooks, Killing Rage: Ending Racism

J. Halberstam, "Imagined Violence/Queer Violence: Representation, Rage, and Resistance"

Robert Staples, “The Myth of Black Macho: A Response to Angry Black Feminists"

Julianne Malveaux, "The Sexual Politics of Black People: Angry Black Women, Angry Black Men"



Just a few that I immediately recall!

Thanks for starting this topic, and thanks also for all the book recs you added in the book recommendations topic. They've been added to the shelf ;)

Thanks for sharing this. I heard about it recently and am looking forward to working through it. It's good to hear that it's been a positive experience for you! it's really important work.

MeerderWörter wrote: "Let me chime in here, if I may.

I am a cisgender intersex woman, so that shapes my view on the world and on issues.
I think, what we need in feminist spheres is a real talk about what privilege ac..."

To address your last point first: I definitely see what you're saying there. I forgot about the color issue too, but I also associated the pink with the color as feminine, not necessarily the literal color of a vagina (which brings us to the problems you point to regarding masculine/feminine ideals anyway). In any case, I think we're far past Trump's pussy comments, so I think the hats have perhaps come to represent something else at least in part to some of the criticisms of them. I can see that some women feel very empowered by them. But they shouldn't be assumed to be representative of all women by any means... I don't think this means we should be critical of women who do feel empowered by wearing them, though (unless they're also saying transphobic things in reference to it...)

I guess it's about choice. The hat will represent different things to different people and that's okay, as long as we acknowledge that wearing one doesn't make you more/less a women or better/worse feminist.

I have a lot of thoughts about safe spaces, and I think one of the main issues is that there's no real conclusive definition of the concept. You're right that no space can ever really be safe for everyone. But it also depends how we're defining "safe". This is perhaps something that needs to be redefined in each new space.

My ideal safe space is one in which we assume best intentions of one another, which can hopefully free up some inhibitions and make us feel comfortable to speak openly. It is also a space where we agree that "what happens in safe space, stays in safe space." Meaning that whatever is said in that space will not be repeated elsewhere. This doesn't mean that people won't get hurt, or that some won't trip up and make mistakes in their discussion, but assuming that everyone honors the necessity for mutual respect and empathy, perhaps it provides openings for really working through difficult issues. And issues can be difficult for a number of reasons: for some they are painful, for others they just don't understand yet.
Anyway, I like to this OSS is a safe space for assuming best intentions of one another, but it's the internet so things can't truly remain confidential. Plus we can't control who stumbles upon our space and infiltrates it to cause problems (like trolls) but at least amongst those of us who are genuine, I like to think we are providing that kind of safe space for one another.

It's a shame that your experiences have led you to feel like you don't belong, Autumn, and I'm sorry for that. I think you're absolutely right when you talk about the two categories, large-scale issues that we can take on as a group of people, and more specific issues that affect some more than others. That being said, we should all be working to help everyone, but also making sure that the most impacted group is leading the charge so we know that their needs are centered and their voices prioritized. So in this case, we should all be fighting to protect and raise up trans folks, but we can't do that by speaking for them. The first step, I think, is listening, but it can't stop there either.

TERFs are perhaps the most blatant and hateful example of trans exclusion in LGBT and feminist groups, but I think they're only the worst of what is a larger problem of transphobia that is still very much a norm even amongst those who would readily identify as supportive of trans folks. And a lot of this comes in the form of anxieties about the shifting narrative of feminism... white cis women were front and center for so long and now we're sharing space (figuratively, but also literally in the case that Pam mentioned about homeless shelters). It's hard because resources and spaces are already so limited, so I can understand the frustration around having to make space when cis men are never expected to. And yet the answer to that shouldn't be to not share that space/those resources.

I try to remember that most views that are popular among a particular group are still never going to be universal. For example, while some trans folks might feel excluded because of the push to de-stigmatize biological feminine parts, that's not necessarily representative of all trans folks. While a vagina does not indicate one's gender, it is still very much a stigmatized word, and so we should be fighting that regardless of our respective genders. I see that as very much in line with a trans-inclusive feminism. But some might find the mere discussion of anatomy uncomfortable. My perspective on this is to help this person feel comfortable in the moment, but that doesn't mean that we should never again address the issue. Just that particular person doesn't need to be involved with that particular issue. I see how this must have been frustrating for some with regard to pussy hats at women's marches; I personally understood the hats as a direct response to Trump's pussy grabbing comments, but not everyone will see that the same way and it's not my place to tell someone else how to interpret things. So being made to feel uncomfortable at a supposedly inclusive event in this way is something I am sympathetic toward even if I don't necessarily think the answer is no more pussy hats...

Okay I think I've rambled enough, and apologies for the lack of coherency. This is such an important topic, thanks for prompting us to discuss, Vern!

Welcome welcome to the newest members of our team! I'm so looking forward to getting to know you all.