Katelyn’s Comments (group member since Jan 07, 2016)

Katelyn’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Ross wrote: "Katelyn Wrote: " legislate the lyrical content of songs (or most anything related to art and culture) is, I believe, misguided "

I agree specific laws on lyrics or any artistic expression would be..."

Well, like I said in an earlier post on this thread, there is a long history of policing art of all kinds and usually that is tied up in fascist regimes, but also totalitarian regimes in general, right and left.

I can only speak for the U.S., but most of the lyrical content that I'm thinking of, even the white supremacist stuff, would not lead to prosecution in an interview OR a song. As was mentioned by others earlier in this thread, there are differences between offensive statements, hate speech, and personal threats. Sometimes it's hard to determine. But most of the content that I'm thinking of would unfortunately be protected.

There is quite an extensive genre of racist, white supremacist music that is "popular" in the U.S. and Europe. I put "popular" in scare quotes because I mean that it is popular with a certain demographic. These lyrics can include a lot of really upsetting language and rhetoric. I guess the major difference is that the musicians are community members making music for their community, and they're not necessarily making a career out of their music, although they do tours and play at festivals. Anyway, when there is a niche for your music and messages, a wider public boycott won't do any good.

A more mainstream example that I can think of off the top of my head is Iggy Azalea, who has had some racist lyrics in her music. And it hasn't seemed to have gotten her far... she had to cancel a tour recently. Not sure that it was a direct reflection of fans' discomfort with the music though. Anyway, when a pop artist's tours aren't selling well, they don't usually have a day job to fall back on, so that can make a rather big impact on their career and perhaps force them to change their tune, I mean their lyrics! (bad pun, sorry folks)

At the end of the day, there are tons of popular music that is sexist and homophobic, for sure. I agree that we can each make an effort to avoid these artists and potentially affect their careers. But any move to legislate the lyrical content of songs (or most anything related to art and culture) is, I believe, misguided, and would have really bad results... In the USA at least it would be almost certainly infringe on constitutional rights. And like I said earlier, it's just a fascist concept in general, no matter how good the intentions are behind it.

Juan wrote: "Elinor wrote: "I loved reading this interview last night, it kept me up way past my intended bedtime - in a good way. It opened my eyes to a few things and I found it really inspiring. I just want ..."

Hi Juan, learn more here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Generally, we try to keep OSS business on Goodreads, so the best way to communicate will be through private messages rather than email ;)

James wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Indigo wrote: " It seems like society considers that only black or Asian people can be terrorists, "

I cant speak about the UK but thats not the case in the US. When a white boy sho..."

That's really interesting. All of the coverage that I saw of both of those accounts were flipped. The white kid was deemed mentally ill by the media (and racist, too, yes, but I don't think I ever heard him called a terrorist other than by those who were pointing out the hypocrisy of not doing so), and the shooter in Dallas I have heard referred to as a terrorist multiple times in conjunction with falsely labeling the Black Lives Matter movement as a terrorist group.

I'm not trying to argue with your account, but we must be reading/watching/listening to very different media!

Alia wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "but that doesn't mean that the author believes that those things are good."

It doesn't matter what the author believes.

Katelyn wrote: "That subplot created conflict between Hermi..."

I think you are misunderstanding me. I mean that it is important to recognize that the circumstances in the series does not mean that the author is attempting to promote those circumstances as right or good.

As far as the savior complex is concerned, I never said that Harry was critical of the savior complex when it comes to Hermione, just that there was a conflict. I meant that the series itself is critical of it in general, and I think that applies to Harry's savior story as well. It's hardly a pleasant time for him, is it?

We can agree to disagree, we can have different interpretations all of which can be valid. I'm mostly interested in the way the series has influenced readers from a young age in a positive way, and to me that outweighs the cons of the story.

There was a study done a few years ago that found children who had read HP at a certain young age were more empathetic toward their peers. That's an interesting cultural impact, I think!

Even when implemented with good intentions, any rules applied to the creation of art (regardless of its simultaneous status as a product) that go beyond individual monitoring of one's own output is borderline fascist. There is a long history of governments enforcing restrictions on culture and art, and it's dangerous.

A better strategy than this or even boycotting individual artists is to affect change with regards to understanding of certain issues to a point that art will naturally adhere to the moral standards that have been cultivated. It's not an easy fix, but I think it's the only way to accomplish what we are considering here without resorting to dangerous solutions.

That all being said, this doesn't change the fact that critical consideration and discussion of music and art should always be encouraged.

Alia wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "The problems facing the world in the series were not entirely solved by the end, no, but it did seem that the "heroes" of the story were interested in continuing to pursue solutions..."

I mean that the rights of different groups of people and creatures in the wizarding world were far from equal, but that doesn't mean that the author believes that those things are good nor that she wants readers to believe those things. These inequalities were presented as problems that needed to be solved.

I never thought that the SPEW subplot was played for laughs, but I'm sure different people have different feelings about that. Some elements of it (the name and the knitting, for example) perhaps, but that's more poking fun at Hermione than the subject itself. That subplot created conflict between Hermione and the boys, and it was rather critical of the "savior" complex in a valuable way.

And I perhaps should have worded the end of my comment better. I should have added that in addition to new material being fun, the fandom has created material that not only extends the universe but also complicates the issues and develops themes that weren't fully undertaken in the series. I think that shows pretty clearly that despite any problems with the original story, the positive themes have been absorbed by readers in a way that made them feel passionate about certain issues that translate both into new fan material as well as real life.

I never claimed that the series is perfect. But it's important to separate criticism of the circumstances within the series and the series itself.

I see two main conflicts happening in this thread:

1. Aesthetic vs. Ideological expression and value

2. Music as Product vs. Music as Art

Music contains both in number one and is both in number two. It seems that different people are conceptualizing music as being one or the other, or prioritizing one or the other, and you have to consider ALL of these elements.

The real issue is that if we want music to both allow freedom of expression from the artist as well as act as a reflection of the desires or demands of public sentiment, then those things need to match up. This leads us back to a larger issue: sexism in general, not just within a song or even within the industry or consumerism. If public understanding of gender and sexism change to reflect the values that we hold, then there would be no discussion or censorship at all because lyrics would not pose as much of a problem. Unfortunately, this reality is a long way off.

At the end of the day, music will be made and people will listen. Some will be unhappy about certain lyrics and avoid that music. In some cases, as in the case of Taylor Swift apologizing for that lyric (I had't heard about that before!), the artist will evolve to reflect those values. I think that's the most we can hope for.

Bottom line: Music is both art and consumer product, and it contains both aesthetic and ideological elements, and individuals need to decide for themselves where they draw the line on where their priorities lie. Often this is a subconscious process. But being critical of the music itself does not equate to censorship. And inquiring about another person's enjoyment of a particular song despite problematic elements is fine as well as long as it is done politely and with the understanding that these somewhat contradictory elements of what makes up popular music make the entire discussion extremely complicated.

Mariana wrote: "It seems that what is happening in this discussion is that the people who are saying they don't like how women are portrayed in contemporary music are being quieted and told #notallmusic Google #no..."

If you're referring to my response here, I want to make clear that the point that I was making is the same one you are: Genres are diverse, as you suggest with your Reggae example. Also, listening to music is a subjective experience, and there are definitely ways that listening to some popular music can be a challenge for many of us. Not everyone has the same priorities or aesthetic values when it comes to music, though.

I would be careful about making blanket statements about entire genres of music, as with anything else. The characteristics assigned to different genres tend to refer mainly to the sound, so lyric content doesn't necessarily always adhere to a certain set of standards (meaning, there are of course trends in certain genres but if something SOUNDS like country music even if it doesn't have typical country lyrics, it would still most likely be categorized as country). Not to mention, the characteristics that we associate with different genres are always subjective!

I have very complicated feelings/thoughts on this issue, as it is part of my academic research interests. In my everyday life, though, I tend to avoid music with blatantly sexist lyrics. But sometimes it's just so catchy, I can't help but to enjoy listening to it. The power of music ;) In all seriousness, though, it's especially complicated because people use music for different purposes and enjoy it in different ways. Sometimes it can be almost entirely divorced from lyrical content.

Hi Lauren, though it's not specifically about mental illness, check out this thread for recommendations for books that intersect feminism and disabilities: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, please feel free to start a thread in the Book Suggestions folder where members can contribute book recommendations on this topic!

There is a stigma surrounding mental illness and while I don't know enough about this topic myself to make any claims about the ratio of its effect on different genders, I think it's a safe bet to say that the stigma and mental illness itself affects different genders very differently. For that reason, I think we need to consider how feminism in general can make progress in this area, and to consider in what ways feminism itself can sometimes perpetuate the stigma as well.

Alia wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "Also, I don't think we should be judging the series based on the status of civil rights in the universe contained in the series. Yes, there are problems with inter-species relations..."

In what ways would you say it is medieval?

The problems facing the world in the series were not entirely solved by the end, no, but it did seem that the "heroes" of the story were interested in continuing to pursue solutions. And as a result, we get sequel material like Cursed Child and amazing material being created by fandom as well which can be a ton of fun.

Ross wrote: "Alia Wrote: "But does it reflect the overall tone of the world? Its societies? "

so far as equality of gender between the wizards yes, treatment of other species had some way yo go but they have ..."

Also, I don't think we should be judging the series based on the status of civil rights in the universe contained in the series. Yes, there are problems with inter-species relations, but that's one of the major plot lines of the series. The fact that there is a problem to solve is kind of the point!

Alia wrote: "Maybe it would be good to start a thread on women's colleges, in case someone wants to come back to this discussion and fails to deduce that it's in the Harry Potter thread."

Great idea, Alia! I think that would be great. Though it is relevant, it is a bit of a tangent, and worth discussing on its own as well.

Welcome to our newest members! We look forward to seeing you all around and hope you'll participate in some of our discussions! If you have any questions, any of the mods are happy to help.

Thanks for linking to the Facebook group, Jenn!!

Also, you can find the topic for the Chicago meet up on Our Shared Shelf here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Please be sure to do a quick search using the bar to the right of the discussion board before posting to check if there is already a thread for that topic. In this interest of organization, we do not allow duplicate topics.

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Laure wrote: "I read the first three HP books when I was a pre-teen and was lucky to grow up with Harry - book 4 came out when I was 12.

As a French girl, I really had a problem with Beauxbatons (and by extens..."

I was also disappointed with how Fleur fared in the Triwizard Tournament!

Although one thing: In the books, Beauxbatons and Durmstrang are both co-ed schools. It's only in the movies that they are all-female and all-male (respectively). I really disliked that change in the movies. It seemed so gender normative and just a really random choice. I guess for the spectacle of those entrances at the beginning but... I just didn't like that at all. But yeah, in the books, they're co-ed!

Hi Hannah, there is already a post on this topic here where I think these issues are being discussed or can be discussed: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Please be sure to do a quick search using the bar to the right of the discussion board before posting to check if there is already a thread for that topic.

Locked and archived

WildfireLookoutTower wrote: "So if it's all about exposing the club to new audiences why are we allowing the interview to be owned by Vogue? If the interview videos go online are they going to be shareable? Or is Vogue likely ..."

All of the information that we have is in the two replies I wrote above. Emma works closely with the authors and her own team to produce these interviews. Whatever goes on behind the scenes in those arrangements is not something that the moderator team is privy to. That being said, for example, the Gloria Steinem interview was conducted at an already scheduled event and Emma was able to get involved in order to do that interview. Perhaps it is something similar with the Vogue interview. We appreciate your feedback, but do keep in mind that not all members will have the same outlook on these issues. As I said, each of the interviews have been conducted in different ways and contexts. Hopefully everyone can enjoy them regardless. In addition, I highly doubt that Emma would conduct an interview in her capacity with Our Shared Shelf that she could not freely share with members.

I also wouldn't consider the interviews to be "all about exposing the club to new audiences", I did not mean to imply that. The main purpose is to supplement the reading and conversations we are having here on Our Shared Shelf. But I do think that a broader audience for Our Shared Shelf, authors, and books, and the issues of feminism in general, is a good thing that can be accomplished in this way.

I'll also mention that while Emma was conducting the interview, that does not mean that she had any control over the arrangements for when and where it was conducted or when it will be published. So while for us on Our Shared Shelf, the months seem to go by quickly as we move from book to book, the outlets through which our interviews are released do not necessarily move as quickly, as there are a lot of things to take into account. Even the Caitlin Moran interview, which was conducted pretty bare bones with just Emma and Caitlin, took a while to be released for various reasons. So we just ask for patience as these interviews are organized, conducted, and published. We will always communicate news about these interviews to members as soon as we become aware of any changes or developments. Certainly if the interview had been cancelled, we would indeed let our members know.