Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Debby wrote: "sigh, Ian J Miller, if they don't need medical help, and most do not, why can't they stay at home? Why do they need to be treated like criminals to "stop them spreading it"?"

Because the evidence is some of them don't. There are two strategies: find a plan that might eliminate the virus and make it work, or let it run and see what happens. NZ chose the first. Whether that is right or wrong will be determined some time later, but choose a scheme that might work and through not dealing with obvious failures ensure it fails is just plain stupid. We know some people refuse to follow rules - the evidence is out there, and is most likely the reason we have this outbreak.

Anni wrote: "Ian, you are not a government advisor by any chance? I’ve heard of playing the devil’s advocate, but I’m starting to suspect you’ve got ‘skin in the game’ to use a modern expression."

Anni, I assure you I am not a government advisor. The only "skin in the game" I have is I like to see the use of logic applied to observations. That is what science is about.

Cheers, James - and apologies to Ian! (I was just letting off steam and joshing you Ian).
The truth is I am frustrated because none of my relatives or friends are on board with what’s really going on and it is so disheartening trying to wake them up.
But - hey, ho, perhaps I’m the one who is away with the fairies and Ian will have the last laugh when we nutters are all taken away by those love,y young men in their clean white coats, to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time - ha ha, he, he !!

He he Anni, but don't worry - no funny farms likely. But more seriously, we won't have any idea of the correct approach to this virus for several years. There is too much we don't know, and too much misinformation out there. We just have to go with a plan that might work and hope it does. There are options, and we don't know how likely they are to work.

Politicizing the Pandemic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njilb...
Former Heavyweight Champ David Rodriguez joins Sean Stone on his podcast InnerViews for Vokal Now, to discuss how control over the population is the main agenda motivating the pandemic response.

That's the key problem of our era, I feel...Everything can be politicized, whether it's man's impact on the environment, racial or gender issues or indeed medical info like this virus... I think that's why we get so much fake news, fake science and propaganda...

James wrote: "Lance wrote: "Tony wrote: "In the long term I suspect we just have to learn to live with Covid-19(48) as we've done with the common flu (as opposed to the coronavirus flu strain which I believe it ..."

"Assume you mean Covid-19(84)!"

Yes my bad. '48 is my DOB and is therefore indelibly printed on my mind.

Ian wrote: "Lance, that isn't quite correct. If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained. Following General Wesley Clark's dictum, the plan was good but they failed to ..."

Contained yes, but for how long? Until the virus burns out or until there's a (safe and effective) vaccine or until we are plunged into a full blown depression? At some point the powers that be have to factor in an element of herd immunity if we are to come outta this in reasonably good shape.

Debby wrote: "sigh, Ian J Miller, if they don't need medical help, and most do not, why can't they stay at home? Why do they need to be treated like criminals to "stop them spreading it"?"

Their argument (and I'm not saying it's right) is that we Kiwis can't be trusted in voluntary isolation as historically so many of us flee the coup if anyone tries to lock us down. Despite all our good points we can be a bit tricky like that...

Lance wrote: "Ian wrote: "Lance, that isn't quite correct. If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained. Following General Wesley Clark's dictum, the plan was good but the..."

Agreed, Lance. The problem is, if we succeed, what then? I don't think an y of the politicians have thought that far ahead, but to some extent I sympathise. I agree with Iain - there is going to be a very unpredictable economic outcome and it is not going to be good, not for anyone.

Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Ian wrote: "Lance, that isn't quite correct. If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained. Following General Wesley Clark's dictum, the plan wa..."

Depends who "we" refers to Iain. Here in Godzone we are still much better off than my parents were in the Great Depression.

One interesting aspect of this is that my generation (the Babyboomers) and my children's generation have been living in paradise (aka a fool's paradise) since my parents' generation went through real hardship before, during and after the Depression and WW2. That was real hardship.

Since then (thanks to your sacrifices Mum and Dad) we feel we are hard done by if we have to sell our second car, cancel an overseas trip, cut down on restaurant dinners, not buy the latest i-phone etc. etc. As a result, such events as lockdowns (where we have to stay at home remember not rot in jail or in some gulag or POW camp) are major catastrophes to us. We need to harden up and realise we've had it good here in the West at least compared to our Third World brothers and sisters.

I suspect psychiatrists would have a field day analyzing all this.

Gotta go... It's medication time.

Iain, I recommend a large single malt. It may not help the situation, but you feel better :-)

This is a mainstream media outlet (The Guardian) doubting the stats and the legitimacy of the whole testing process (exactly what alternative media has been saying all along)...

Government quietly drops 1.3m Covid tests from England tally https://www.theguardian.com/world/202...
Exclusive: Double counting raises fresh questions about accuracy of testing figures

A positive test does not make you a Covid-19 case https://conservatives.global/a-positi...

Tucker: Lockdowns are destroying America https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAB9...

Iain wrote: "Is This Crisis Quietly Creating A New Economic Superpower

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jgA-..."

I dunno about that analysis, what do you think?
India is being hard hit (by both the virus and the lockdown measures)

So I am starting to think China comes out on top of all this?
Maybe Russia too?

IMF and WEF – From Great Lockdown to Great Transformation https://www.globalresearch.ca/imf-wef...

Although, both WEF and IMF recognize that this crisis will bring more debt, higher deficits, higher unemployment and higher levels of poverty, they both want adjustments. And adjustments usually target the lower income groups, the poor. “Adjustments” is the lingo of the IMF and the World Bank, “reforming” public administration, i.e. firing a large segment of state employees, thereby increasing unemployment, deprivation and despair; privatizing public assets and services (stealing people’s accumulated assets); giving concessions to foreign corporations to exploit the countries’ national natural resources – and the carrot is: An IMF or WB loan, or both. Bravo. It brings debt and debt service – and foremost more control by the Global North over the Global South.

Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Ian wrote: "Lance, that isn't quite correct. If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained. Following General Wesley ..."

Iain me ol' mate, the fact remains here in the West we Babyboomers have until now and with few exceptions experienced little actual hardship compared to our parents and grandparents ala the Spanish Flu and the (truly) Great Depression and WW2 and the rebuild that followed those catastrophic events.... so this new Covid world and all the shite that surrounds it has come as a real shock to us. We weren't prepared for this emotionally at least and it shows. We gotta harden up mate and cope with it...

I think you're both right. Our post WW2 generations have known the most peace and prosperity and opportunity (albeit not as much since the start of the 21st Century).

But I also agree Iain that the world we are born into does make a difference also.

Perhaps the bottom line tho is we all may need to become tougher to survive this age (tougher like earlier generations) -- and I would add less sensitive too so we stop being offended by everything (which supports "cancel culture").

Just my thoughts.

Iain wrote: "James what's your 'beef' with the IMF? You seem have to have 'Bee in your Bonnet' about them? ..."

Take the analogy of the most evil banker who purposely lends to individuals in society he knows will never be able to pay off the loans - and that this banker has a caveat in the fine print in the contract that if these individuals are unable to meet the repayments, then the banker may offer more loans, BUT also get most if not all of the assets they own...If any of these individuals somehow manage to meet repayments eventually, the interest will be so high that they will spend their life crippled by debt with little to no hope of ever getting out of debt.

Then apply that same approach to the IMF lending to nations.

Beyond that, the IMF and World Bank also try to force certain political agendas of these countries - and even approaches to medicine. This was exposed recently when Belarus refused more IMF monies as the Belarus' leader said that the IMF were also trying to force "the Italian approach" to dealing with Covid...

Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Ian wrote: "Lance, that isn't quite correct. If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained..."

Somewhere along the line I think this discussion has become over-complicated. (My fault). I better sign off now before my brain explodes...

And once again, yet another country confirms the likelihood that roughly 10 times as many as the reported infected cases actually exist (which is very important as it means this virus is a LOT less deadly than first thought)...

New NSW COVID-19 cases likely 10 times higher than official figures: expert https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-1...
By national medical reporter Sophie Scott and the Specialist Reporting Team's Emily Clark

The number of new COVID-19 cases in New South Wales each day is likely to be up to 10 times the figure reported by authorities, according to one epidemiologist, as fears about community transmission in the state grow.

University of Melbourne epidemiologist Tony Blakely said the presence of cases without a known source was "a good signal" actual case numbers were a lot higher.

"So, if they've got an average of 20 [cases per day] in the last week, that means that at any one point in time, there's about 200 other cases out there that we don't know about. Basically, 10 times the daily count," Professor Blakely said.

Ian J Miller, so everyone must be imprisoned because some won't comply? Isn't collective punishment illegal under all laws of war?

Lance Morcan, sorry I have to disagree with you. I grew up in a poor family, yes, there are hundreds of thousands of poor Pakeha especially if they are immigrants, and we never had a second car or an overseas holiday. That's not why I go mental under lockdown. Not being a New Zealander I am not happy with being confined. Especially in a freezing uninsulated rental.

Great speech by Gareth Icke at Birmingham lockdown protest https://davidicke.com/2020/08/16/grea...

Debby, two weeks in a five star hotel is "collective punishment", "confined. Especially in a freezing uninsulated rental"? You have a funny idea of what comprises a five star hotel. Now, if those who felt the need to ignore the rules were given a tent and placed somewhere in the military training area at Waiouru and offered the option of another escape, yes, you then might have a point. M

Ian wrote: "Now, if those who felt the need to ignore the rules were given a tent and placed somewhere in the military training area at Waiouru and offered the option of another escape, yes, you then might have a point...."

That may be stage 2, Ian!

Toughen them up, James :-)

I'm psychologically prepared already I think, Ian. But thank you for your concern. If you end up in an NZ Gulag, best of luck!

Ian J Miller, I was not referring to managed isolation, but to continued lockdowns. The 5 Star hotel story is starting to fall apart, as ppl tell each other that it's mostly shabby motels, boarding houses etc. Mostly you missed my point

Debby wrote: "Ian J Miller, I was not referring to managed isolation, but to continued lockdowns. The 5 Star hotel story is starting to fall apart, as ppl tell each other that it's mostly shabby motels, boarding..."

soon it'll be halls with 1,000 beds!

I am currently reading the most devastating account of Agenda 21.
For those on this platform who may still be in denial about what the Globalists are up to - I give you this excerpt from ‘The New World Religion and the Beliefs of the Elites’ by James Musker :-
(Apologies if this account has already been discussed on here)

“Agenda 21 is one of the most important political documents humanity has ever seen.[7] It was the main outcome of the United Nations’ Earth Summit held in Rio de Janeiro in 1992, and it was the first time that the UN’s vision for a centrally managed global society came into view. This contract will end up binding governments around the world to the United Nations’ plan for controlling the way we live, eat, move, learn and communicate - all under the noble banner of saving Mother Earth.
Agenda 21 is the action plan to inventory and control every human being on the planet, every country and piece of land, all water, all minerals, all plants, trees, animals, and all the means of production of any type. It also includes controlling all energy, and all information and educational establishments. It seeks to store all the world’s information and data and have government involvement in every aspect of our lives. At the moment this new system is slowly being interwoven into policy decisions at the highest level and they are promoting it at every opportunity and so it seems more than likely that this is the direction in which they want to take humanity.

Agenda 21 makes a mockery of the rights of the individual who would end up living in a collective, without any ownership of property or means of creating or storing wealth. It demotes mankind to a resource. It’s full of the politically correct jargon on ‘Sustainable Development’, educational jargon and social adjustments - it’s actually a kind of naïve wish list of the desires for humanity to grow into the Utopian New Age Society the Elite want for the world. The 350-page document basically assumes that people are not good stewards of their land and that government will do a better job. It really seeks to hand authority, decision making and sovereignty to a committee of unelected UN bureaucrats.[8] Individual rights in general give way to the needs of the community as determined by the state. This makes it a type of Communitarianism and from the point of view of the State, a collectivist economy. This is what it says - it is not a conspiracy theory! It says this in black and white”.

Debby, you wrote everyone must be imprisoned. I apologize if I did not see that as a lockdown but having to stay home hardly rates in my opinion as being in a prison. You can do what you like except go and congregate with others. As far as I was concerned, the worst part of our full lockdown here was the fact I could not get an electrician because what I needed doing was not life-threatening, and also on a much lesser scale, the annoyance of getting groceries. Everything else was rather minor in the context of the benefit of keeping the hospital wards available, and me out of them.

Ian, I was fine too during the full lockdown. Millions of people were not fine, I can assure you. And any future lockdowns, billions of people will not be fine, I can assure you. That's why subjective experiences in this regard are meaningless - we need to think objectively and consider the entire planet.

James wrote: "Ian, I was fine too during the full lockdown. Millions of people were not fine, I can assure you. And any future lockdowns, billions of people will not be fine, I can assure you. That's why subject..."

Yes I think it's important to think globally and outside our little corner of the world. Kiwis battling in this pandemic are propped up by ongoing wage subsidies or by dole monies if they're out of work and I believe it's much the same in Aussie. People elsewhere aren't so lucky.

P.S. Sooner or later the NZ Govt's money-printing presses are going to run out of ink and that's when those proverbial chickens might come home to roost...

James, the whole thing comes down to costs and benefits, and I am not restricting that to money. There is an article in the latest Nature (Nature 584, 170 (2020)) which makes the point that currently all we are doing is counting dead/not dead yet. What is missing is the economic impact of all those who do not recover properly and cannot resume their previous activities, and it gives a personal example. Until we have a full account of all consequences, it is too early to tell whether it was worth it.

Interestingly, a local economist calculated and compared the effects between NZ and Sweden solely on the basis of cash, presumably corrected so it was on a per capita basis. During the lockdown, NZ was $10 billion worse off than Sweden, but since then, up to July, it recovered and was 6.3 billion better off than Sweden. Of course now we have another partial lockdown, so back to sliding down the snake, but again it is too early to tell overall.

Lance, as I said in another post on this topic, the fact that there is no coherent answer to the question, "What next?" is very concerning.

Ian wrote: "Until we have a full account of all consequences, it is too early to tell whether it was worth it...."

And yet you appear to have made your mind up in about March...which is pseudoscientific (i.e. real science is anti making assumptions)...

Time to be honest: A narrative of "a super deadly virus being a great threat to humanity" has been successfully sold to us via almost 24/7 broadcasting on a scale of news bombardment never seen before in history. The facts (like the fatality rate) have been largely ignored because in my opinion human brains think in terms of narratives not facts (even for most scientists unfortunately). Humans evolved over hundreds of thousands of years with very few facts, BUT a large amount of stories to summarize any rare facts discovered (so we are hardwired to think in terms of narratives).

And the ruling Elites understand this about the brain and narratives trumping (no pun intended!) a body of facts - for most people at least. That's why owning and corrupting news media is so important. George Orwell, for one, wrote about all this.

"Seek truth from facts" -Han Dynasty Book of Han, AD 111

James, I did not make up my mind. I quoted facts as known at the time and tried to avoid "estimates" where the validity was unclear, and what they were based on was not at all clear.

Currently, the deaths total over 3/4 of a million. That is not a trifling number. In the US they have been running at somewhere between 1000 - 1500 per day for over a week, and are growing. I feel justified in saying that is at least threatening :-)

Ian wrote: "Currently, the deaths total over 3/4 of a million. That is not a trifling number. In the US they have been running at somewhere between 1000 - 1500 per day for over a week, and are growing. I feel justified in saying that is at least threatening :-)..."

Okay, and remember earlier in this thread we discussed the under-reported 2017-2018 Influenza season (which only lasted over winter at 16 weeks, less than Rona has been going) which not only wiped out some rest homes almost entirely but also killed around 1.5 million people globally (double the average Influenza death toll)? One would need to feel twice as "justified" with that, I assume?

That's another thing with setting policies based on science, Ian. Gotta be consistent.

Ian wrote: "I quoted facts as known at the time and tried to avoid "estimates" where the validity was unclear, and what they were based on was not at all clear...."

Ah yes, I recall all those discussions and how you were confusing bad science estimates with necessary estimates and how you didn't seem to know the difference between IFR and CFR (hence why you were actually convinced this virus had a colossal fatality rate of 5% - which I notice you've now stopped quoting). You can't retrofit your original arguments Ian and pretend you were "on point" all along...And I'm certainly not claiming to have many or even any answers, but I wasn't the one arguing it is necessary for us all to lockdown and claiming young people were trying to kill me etc etc...

There are certainly dumb estimates some lousy scientists make, I agree. And I also agree we should dismiss those and be very wary of estimates and modelling etc.

However, the most crucial thing in all of science in 2020 I would argue is the extremely necessary ESTIMATE of what is the actual Infection Fatality Rate for the Rona. That is the stat that can potentially cut thru all this narrative and assumptions and BS science journalism.

Remember all we have as to the fatality rate of the Spanish Flu a century later is an IFR ESTIMATE of 4%. That's it. Enough to tell us it was an extremely fatal virus. Nobody with any experience with infectious diseases dismisses that estimate just because it's an estimate, for the simple reason that an IFR must always be an estimate as you can never test everybody...

Ultimately, either we will end up with a very high IFR (remember the London Imperial College originally predicted a 3-4% IFR which caused the lockdowns and the entire narrative we still have running in the media), and therefore all your assumptions and arguments to date will be proven right, OR it will be a comparatively low IFR in the range of Influenza as per all the studies I have seen listing between 0.1 to around 0.5% max -- and we therefore will have essentially just wrecked our societies for nothing (nothing we couldn't have dealt with like we deal with Influenza annually).

For anyone interested, there are posts with references to many of the IFR studies to date revealing low estimated fatality rates:

The CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is not the all-important IFR (Infection Fatality Rate) https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

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Don't know where you got 1.5 million deaths from, James. I tried the CDC website, and they said the figures weren't in yet. The 5% I quoted before were the CFR figures at the time - no estimates. Yes, the figure is dropping. Of course I know the difference between a CFR and an IFR, just as I know the difference between a measurement and an estimate. You keep using this word science, as if you were actually a scientist. Science is about making logical conclusions from measurements, and that includes recognizing the error range in those measurements. It is policy-makers that want estimates.

Of course the IFR will be lower than the CFR, not the least because the young don't get symptoms but presumably can still transmit. They have two defences we don't - The ACE sites and their androgen levels.

Ian wrote: "Lance, as I said in another post on this topic, the fact that there is no coherent answer to the question, "What next?" is very concerning."

I can confidently predict what's next (for NZ at least) Ian... We will conquer this second wave and get back to Level 1 then will experience another spike and go back into Level 3 or 4 lockdown again. We will then conquer the third wave and get back to Level 1 then... Need I go on?

At some point it's obvious we will need to rely on at least an element of a herd immunity approach to conquer this thing and to preserve the economy or what's left of it.

Lance, there is no reason to believe herd immunity will work. The RNA of viruses changes, and apparently there is the isolated example of people who have got the virus twice. But you are right in one sense - we cannot simply continue with sequential lockdowns.

Ian wrote: "Don't know where you got 1.5 million deaths from, James. I tried the CDC website, and they said the figures weren't in yet. The 5% I quoted before were the CFR figures at the time - no estimates. Y..."

Ian, no offence but how's your memory? Or are you just trolling or what?

All this exact discussion about the 2017-2018 Influenza season being much higher than the average Influenza season (650K deaths annually on the planet on average), and estimated to be between 1-1.5M globally (CDC confirmed 80K in the USA), was all discussed not that long ago in this very thread -- you responded to it in detail and acknowledged you weren't previously aware of that severe Influenza season. Various links, studies etc were posted about it, so I can't repost just to remind you of it all again. Going over old ground here.

And your ongoing glossing over about IFR vs CFR is getting plain ridiculous now. They simply are massively different and an estimate is always needed for the IFR and that's that. Becoming clear you are just blindly regurgitating mainstream media reports and the accepted narrative and you are not doing actual research into studies of the virus itself. The 5% fatality rate you were previously quoting was you presenting it as the actual fatality rate with no awareness or acknowledgement that that's the CFR.

To repeat, and for the last time: An estimated IFR (by it's nature it must be an estimate) is ALWAYS infinitely superior to even the most accurate CFR -- CFR is virtually useless apart from being a good stat for planning within hospitals. Your continuous mockery of ALL estimates is 100% anti-scientific when it comes from infectious diseases.

Anni, over to you! Maybe your previous theory of Ian secretly working for the governmentt may be true :)
Either that or it's a case of "none so blind as those who will not see"?

James, feel free to show me where the 1.5 million deaths came from. The CDC doesn't appear to know.

As for infinitely superior, have you any idea what infinity is? Why is an estimated IFR superior? Everyone knows that the CFR is an overestimate, but it is a value that has been measured. and it does give an indication of the hospital requirements for serious infections. If the infection is so mild it does not register, what use is that information, other than for flinging around numbers?

As an aside, I never said estimates were 100% antiscientific - I merely said above "It is policy-makers that want estimates." However, they are not measurements.

I agree with your last sentence, James - and will add “none so gullible as those who will not think for themselves.”
How anyone can fail to understand the agenda behind all this COVID nonsense, when the evidence is all around ‘in plain view’ and in print (see above re. Agenda 21 documents) beats me.

And you are so right about the importance of narrative when influencing the human brain, which is why the Elites are using religion as part of their plan to indoctrinate us all.

Ian J Miller, Sorry I don't seem to be able to get across to you the horror for me of being imprisoned in an icy cold badly maintained rental, with no computer, no access to one, no car, no one living with me. It's effing solitary confinement! Tough shit you couldn't get an electrician, I don't jolly well care! I have learned this week of 3 people told to stay away from "overcrowded" hospitals and doctors' surgeries who are seriously ill because they weren't seen in time. Endocarditis, a serious infection and cancer, who gives a monkey's that you couldn't get an electrician! As for groceries, I know a 92 year old out on her own who ended up in hospital when a dog attacked her. We are not all effing luvvies!

Sorry everyone about my bad language just then. I have been suffering dental pain for a week and have run out of patience.