Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Iain wrote: "Iain wrote: "Coronavirus: Former MI6 boss says theory COVID-19 came from Wuhan lab must not be dismissed as conspiracy

https://news.sky.com/story/former-hea......"

Along the lines of this:

Think-tank report suggests UK could claim £351bn in damages from Beijing

https://www.theweek.co.uk/coronavirus...

Iain wrote: "Iain wrote: "Iain wrote: "Coronavirus: Former MI6 boss says theory COVID-19 came from Wuhan lab must not be dismissed as conspiracy

https://news.sky.com/story/former-hea......"

China obviously won't pay. And it just so happens this could come along at a time when the UK is beginning to sanction countries on independent terms. . . .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...

Soft war with these sanctions, Iain - dontcha think?

Iain wrote: "Just when you thought it COULD get possibly worse!!! Bubonic Plague surfaces and wants the 14th century back . . . .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia..."

It has been around more or less continuously in very rare cases. Fortunately, Yersinia Pestis is still controlled with antibiotics, but what happens if it picks up antibiotic resistance by gene transfer from some more common bacteria? (As an aside, the link suggested 30 - 60% fatality for bubonic plague. There is another option for Y. Pestis other than from rat fleas - it can be transmitted more or less like a cold, or COVID 19 - and infects the lungs. No buboes at all, but pneumonic plague, as it is called is apparently far more dangerous. Oddly enough, in the medieval plagues, some decided the disease was transmitted by "foul air" and they wore masks. That seemed to work, although of course a bacillus is much bigger than a virus.

Sweden needs to be observed carefully in coming months and years, I feel...For comparison purposes and especially for other nations to assess how to manage either second waves of this current virus, or other viruses, in future. Sweden (as well as quite a few Asian countries like Taiwan that never locked down) can be an excellent case study of the opposite approach.

It's not yet conclusive obviously, and yes they have had more cases/deaths than their Scandinavian neighbours, but so far there's a reasonably strong argument in my opinion that Sweden has made the right decision not to lockdown at all...For example, their deathtoll is only 50% that of their fellow EU nation Belgium (a country with same size population of 10M) which did a full lockdown i.e. Sweden has just over 5,000 deaths whereas Belgium has around 10,000. According to the official narrative and the constant reminders of how crucial lockdowns are, you'd assume Sweden would have 10 or more times the deathtoll of Belgium... Other countries that did full lockdowns with similar-sized populations include the Netherlands (6,500 deaths), Ecuador (5,000 deaths approx) and Chile (6,500 deaths approx)...

I believe we need to remember that most true believers in the WHO/Gates Lockdown model originally warned Sweden they would have totally out of control deathtoll (one EU figure I read predicted Sweden would have the highest deathtoll in the world). It's still too early to call, but so far that's just not happening despite all the negative media reports about Sweden...Whereas as per the Oxford epidemiologist I quote in newspaper article below, there are scientific arguments (albeit underreported) to suggest Sweden has done the right thing

Meanwhile, Sweden's economy will likely be in much better shape compared to lockdown nations, especially if lockdown nations continue to do the same approach month after month with each mini outbreak that occurs (although in this global economy Sweden at least will get economic residue from the lockdown nations, especially if the world falls into recession). They would also presumably have lower rates of depression, suicides, domestic violence etc, as well as the highest quality of life for citizens in the world right now, due to allowing Swedes to have total freedom.


Sweden's daily tally of new COVID-19 cases falls to lowest since May https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...


‘Selfish’ Australia should copy Swedish virus approach, says Oxford epidemiologist https://www.news.com.au/technology/sc...
One of the world’s top epidemiologists says Australia should copy Sweden’s virus strategy because our lockdown approach is not working.

One of the world’s leading epidemiologists says Australia should copy Sweden’s herd immunity strategy because our “selfish” lockdown approach is not working.

Sunetra Gupta, professor of theoretical epidemiology in the Department of Zoology at the University of Oxford, told The Australian our government’s “self-congratulatory’’ approach is misguided and will have negative long-term consequences for the nation.

She said if we let the virus — which 80 to 90 per cent of the population will only get asymptomatically — spread naturally, with strong protections for those most vulnerable, it would protect all Australians from future viral threats and save our economy.

“There is no way lockdown can eliminate the virus … and so it’s not at all surprising once you lift lockdown in areas it will flare up again,” she said.

“That is what we are seeing in the southern United States, and in Australia. In places where it has already swept through, a proportion of people are immune and you are not seeing it come back.’’

"There is no way lockdown can eliminate the virus". The lockdown in NZ did. It may get reintroduced from fresh overseas cases, but the statement is simply untrue. If you remove the opportunity for the virus to reproduce, it gets eliminated. For that to work, though, the lockdown has to be rigorous. Any softness, and it fails.

As for herd immunity, maths says 60% infection is the dead minimum where it might occur. With a virus that remain infectious over a long period, that is probably an underestimate. According to our newspaper, blood samples from 61,000 randomly selected Spaniards came back with only 5% having antibodies. That is somewhat short of herd immunity.

Sweden has had 5550 deaths from a little under 75,000 confirmed cases. That is a fairly significant death rate, and they are well below any reasonable expectation of herd immunity. The Swedes may be being sufficiently careful, and they may get out of it without such immunity, and we shall have to see, but there will be the potential for it to flare up again.

Think of your work place. What is the maximum number of people off work because of colds or flu at a given time? In my experience, it is at best about a couple of a per cent, but the viruses persist.

Ian wrote: "Think of your work place. What is the maximum number of people off work because of colds or flu at a given time? In my experience, it is at best about a couple of a per cent, but the viruses persist. ..."

Ian, your question can be flipped...

Think of your work place. Any work place.
6/10 people answer: "Well, my work place no longer exists, Ian!"
(The ongoing lockdowns wiped out 60% of businesses in this future economic model)

Sweden, Taiwan and other Herd nations, might answer differently, however...

This mega unemployment scenario can easily become the ugly future reality on the economic side.

Economic stats are beginning to come out of Victoria, AU of what this second full lockdown (which will be at least 6 weeks until September, but the VIC Premiere said yesterday is likely to be extended beyond that) will cost Victoria. It's a LOT and Victoria may be on the economic brink many experts are saying. Many, many businesses are also on the brink now... Now think of nations like India!!!!! BIG trouble! The cost? LIVES! (that's the back-end scenario I referred to earlier in this thread from the decisions we are making now at the front end - in other words it's lives at front-end versus lives at the back-end)

Now returning to the science...

You stated: "Sweden has had 5550 deaths from a little under 75,000 confirmed cases. That is a fairly significant death rate,"

So Belgium, a nation with near identical population to Sweden and did lockdown, has had 9,778 deaths from 62,210 confirmed cases (much worse than Sweden). Other countries that did full lockdowns with similar-sized populations include the Netherlands (6,500 deaths from 50,798 confirmed cases) and Ecuador (Just under 5,000 deaths from 65,000 cases)... Both those nations are also worse than Sweden according to your deaths vs cases model which you place emphasis on...

So when do we get to the part where Sweden's number's blow up much worse than the rest of the world? Shouldn't they have a deathtoll of about 500,000 by now? Or at least 50,000? And shouldn't they have soooo many more cases than other lockdown nations in the EU? I mean, didn't Sweden just make the worst decision in history?

OR, has much of the rest of the world made a catastrophic decision?

Time will tell, but for now we need to keep questioning the narrative, I believe. Right now, the narrative is trumping scientific facts and rational thought.

Ian wrote: ""There is no way lockdown can eliminate the virus". The lockdown in NZ did. ..."

Sunetra Gupta, professor of theoretical epidemiology in the Department of Zoology at the University of Oxford, disagrees with you (as per the article I linked above).

Not saying this medical doctor is definitely right and you are wrong necessarily, but pointing out that you're making a leap of faith and presenting a conclusion that's not provable (it could be right, it could be wrong - it cannot be tested). Given that not all 5M of New Zealanders were tested at the time NZ made the triumphant statement "the virus has been completely eliminated from New Zealand!" In fact, I think you'll find only 10% or less of Kiwis had been tested by that stage...Therefore, without testing all of New Zealanders, there's no way to prove it had been eliminated when politicians stated that.

If you wanna talk politics and not science tho, then it was great political strategy to make that statement. And when is the next NZ election? Oh wait, it's in September isn't it? :)

True, James, they did not test everyone in NZ, but there seems to have been an absence of cases since the lockdown was declared successful. That may not continue, since we have had a number of people come back from abroad, bringing the virus, and a small number of these breaking quarantine. The proof of the elimination depended on no further cases. If there are more and nobody notices, then so what? If it is transmissible, sooner or later someone will notice. The logic is quite scientific.

As for Sweden, we don't know. It is true it has had few cases, and it may be that the Swedish lifestyle stops rapid spread. Strictly speaking, it is the overall integral that counts, and we may need a lot more time to tell. Swedes may even have some genetic defence that makes the virus difficult to take, and if so, good luck to them.

As for accusing me of being political, what a horrible accusation. I assure you I have no political standing, although I suppose the way we did the lockdown was helpful. Life here now is exactly the same as it would have been prior to the lockdown, apart from touristy things and some trade. Our biggest problem is more likely to be the China/Hong Kong issue rather than the virus. And maybe the closure of the big aluminium smelter.

I meant the narrative put out about this virus has political undertones at all times (especially in the USA), not yourself looking to be political. And people accept and repeat the corona narrative without realising some of it is political...

Given the immediate future of the earth may hang in the balance, It would have been really nice if politicians could have been mature enough to just let the likes of scientists, economists, human rights experts, crime experts etc, put forward their messages... without political pointscoring muddying their expert opinions.

But nope, it's obviously too much to ask. Politicians really are the lowest of the low!

James wrote: "I meant the narrative put out about this virus has political undertones at all times (especially in the USA), not yourself looking to be political. And people accept and repeat the corona narrative..."

Can't disagree with the last thought.

James Morcan, thank you for clarifying about Ian's relationship.

Ian J Miller, imo Ardern's "bet the farm" on her vicious unnecessary lockdown, and her claim she eradicated the disease, an absurd lie. Now we have rich girls crazed by fear advocating murder of foreigners who escape managed isolation (on RNZ'S THE PANEL on Wednesday 8th July). Today we learnt US film crews don't have to go into managed isolation. Because they're American? According to the NZ media they absolutely should.

James Morcan, yes, our election is in September but I suspect that it will not be allowed to go ahead. Maybe we will be back in level 4 lockdown by then, cos Ardern's private polls are probably telling her she can't win.

Debby, to the best of my knowledge the US film crews DO go into managed isolation.

There will be an election because the coalition partners will not want to be associated with denial of one, and Labour cannot govern without them, at least this side of the election. National currently is bogged down with leaking confidential information. I think Ardern is as likely to win as anyone.

The Impacts of the Draconian Lockdowns: 1.1 Billion People At Risk of Starvation. Dr. John Ioannidis https://www.globalresearch.ca/300-mil...

Leading epidemiologist Dr. John Ioannidis of Stanford University estimates that about 150-300 million or more people have already been infected by COVID-19 around the world, far more than the 10 million documented cases.

In an interview with Greek Reporter, the Greek American scientist warns, however, that the draconian lockdowns imposed in many countries may have the opposite effect of what was intended. “Globally, the lockdown measures have increased the number of people at risk of starvation to 1.1 billion, and they are putting at risk millions of lives,” he says.

Yes, it’s all a sham to see how many sheeples can be coerced by fear into obeying the “authorities” without question - even when it should be obvious to anyone with a few brain cells to rub together that none of the draconian measures - such as isolating the healthy instead of the old and frail make sense.
We have our own little tin-pot despot in the UK - Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP who is laying down her own laws about mask-wearing in shops and restrictions on travel between Scotland and England.

Anni wrote: "We have our own little tin-pot despot in the UK - Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP who is laying down her own laws about mask-wearing in shops and restrictions on travel between Scotland and England...."

Sturgeon will be loving this. Her and all the other Radical Leftists tilting Western democracy on its head and risking the entire foundations of the free world.

Spot on, James!

Mask wearing is one of those things that is argued to be scientific but at this stage it is not. To be scientific, we need some clear demonstration of what is in the air and whether masks stop it. So far I have seen no measured data - merely assertion based on somebody's opinion.

Debby wrote: "James Morcan, yes, our election is in September but I suspect that it will not be allowed to go ahead. Maybe we will be back in level 4 lockdown by then, cos Ardern's private polls are probably tel..."

Debby, I suspect 'our Cindy' would have to embark on a murder spree not to be re-elected in the upcoming election. More so after the shambolic state of the opposition at present.

Ian J Miller, I think you are wrong, Ardern won't win, & possibly knows that - I know so many former supporters who have gone against her since the lockdown!

Debby, I've been wrong on predictions many times so maybe you are right. I suspect it might come down to how many votes NZ First cam scrape up. We shall see in September. My face is prepared for egg.

NZ First are probably in a power of trouble, as their supporters turn against them (or literally die off, example my mother in law). I have been surprised before, & not in a good way (9 loooooong years of John Key) however ardern isn't the answer! I wish I knew who is..come si dice in italiano, vedremo'!

Ian wrote: "Mask wearing is one of those things that is argued to be scientific but at this stage it is not. To be scientific, we need some clear demonstration of what is in the air and whether masks stop it. ..."

My doctor says he doesn't wear a mask and doesn't have his children wear one either. He's a medical doctor and he said that you can't isolate a virus and that this whole coronascam is exactly that...something other than what we are being told. He said he knows that for sure. Then I noticed one of my previous doctors is all over youtube and apparently he was fired from his job for speaking out and he has the same opinion! That is two doctors in the Central New York Area who I know personally to be responsible, intelligent medical professionals and they both say it's not what we are told. If anyone is interested the one doctor who lost his job is called Andrew Kaufman (yes Andy Kaufman like the late comedian) and his videos on youtube are interesting.

Andrew Kaufman was your doctor, Irene?

In my opinion, nobody knows whether masks work because nobody has made the necessary measurements. You see all sorts of assertions, often with figures, but you never see the basis of the assertion or how they got the figures in sufficient detail to be credible.

James wrote: "Andrew Kaufman was your doctor, Irene?"

He was my psychiatrist but then he said he wanted to help me lose weight and get healthy and he didn't accept insurance for this new all natural treatment but he said he would see me free of charge as long as I'd write up a review of his book for him after we were done. He was so optimistic. Our first appointment was supposed to be one hour long but we talked for 3 hours. I'd never met a doctor who had such radical ideas. I loved it. Next I had my first appointment at his home which was absolutely gorgeous by the way and located right out in Manlius which is just 10 minutes from my grandmothers house. His office (he doesn't work there anymore) was even closer in Fayetteville. I could have walked there. It didn't work out though since I had a different doctor who was and still is providing me with medication he doesn't believe in and actually is completely against. He told me to come back after weaning off my meds when I want to get healthy. This was over a year prior to COVID. Then during COVID I was listening to one of my podcasts and heard him say he lives in CNY so I took a closer look at him then remembered the name due to him having the same name as the late American comedian. So, yup my current doctor and my old doctor (who I only saw twice but made a big impression on me w/ his views) BOTH do not wear masks and do not believe the "virus" is what we have been told at all. I haven't met a single person who has personally known someone who had COVID19. I'm waiting to meet someone who has had it or knows someone who has. Plus, why all these checkpoints asking for my phone number and taking my temperature when even according to the main stream no one dies from it. Under age 45 the fatality rate is basically zero. More folks die from the seasonal flu but we don't wreck the economy because of it. I went to get a smoothie yesterday and they had a big sign saying they do not accept CASH. Makes one wonder what this is really all about. My grandmother is in her 90's (oxycontin grama) and she had pneumonia pretty bad in February but she survived. Maybe she had this virus but even persons in their 90's can survive it if that's the case.

Same here, Irene - I don’t know anyone amongst all my friends, relatives, neighbours or acquaintances who has had or died due to the virus - and neither do they!
I am following Dr. Kaufman on Youtube, and Dr. Rashid Buttar who agrees with him. They are both completely convincing about the bogus nature of this ‘pandemic’, the evil of mass vaccination and the dangers of wearing masks.

Irene, there is a lady who is 116 years old..
She got the virus and fully recovered!

Irene wrote: "James wrote: "Andrew Kaufman was your doctor, Irene?"

He was my psychiatrist but then he said he wanted to help me lose weight and get healthy and he didn't accept insurance for this new all natur..."

Wow, your doctor has now gone very famous internationally. I've been linking to his analysis in this thread here:

Doctors and Medical Scientists with contrarian opinions on the Coronavirus (please only include links to statements made by doctors, scientists and medical professionals) https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Listen to this! "the quicker we test you, the sooner we can release you from your homes"... I'd be interested to know under Australian law if you can blackmail or coerce people like that to take any medical test...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCa0p5oJY_X/

Looks Like Sweden Was Right After All https://www.globalresearch.ca/sweden-...

Why is the media so fixated on Sweden’s coronavirus policy? What difference does it make?

Sweden settled on a policy that they thought was both sustainable and would save as many lives as possible. They weren’t trying to ‘show anyone up’ or ‘prove how smart they were’. They simply took a more traditionalist approach that avoided a full-scale lockdown. That’s all.

But that’s the problem, isn’t it? And that’s why Sweden has been so harshly criticized in the media, because they refused to do what everyone else was doing. They refused to adopt a policy that elites now universally support, a policy that scares people into cowering submission. The Swedish model is a threat to that approach because it allows people to maintain their personal freedom even in the midst of a global pandemic. Ruling class elites don’t want that, that is not in their interests. What they want is for the people to meekly accept the rules and conditions that lead to their eventual enslavement. That’s the real objective, complete social control, saving lives has nothing to do with it. Sweden opposed that approach which is why Sweden has to be destroyed. It’s that simple.

I agree with everything you say, James.

James wrote: "Looks Like Sweden Was Right After All https://www.globalresearch.ca/sweden-...

Why is the media so fixated on Sweden’s coronavirus policy? What difference does it make?

Sw..."

And what's the opposing alternative? Bring the army in. Maybe the Seals, we don't want any leaks there lest it end up like a wasteland reminiscent of Madmax . . . .

Sweden (Taiwan and other Asian nations that never locked down) is the alternative, is it not?

James wrote: "Sweden (Taiwan and other Asian nations that never locked down) is the alternative, is it not?"

Sweden's turning into another Orwellian basket case in other ways. I have my own thoughts on this.

It's a nightmare either way . . . . trust me . . . .

I can't speak for stats. I am more interested in origins and the catalyst. I think that would be the most important question to answer in order to answer the other questions . .. .

Iain wrote: "Sweden's turning into another Orwellian basket case in other ways. I have my own thoughts on this...."

Well I'm just talking scientifically/medically what's the best way to deal with this virus... Not so much the Left/Right paradigm or whatever any nation's general political approach is before, during or after this virus period e.g. Right now the CCP could reveal to the world a way to deal with the virus that the rest of us could go, "yup, that's the way to deal with it medically and makes the most scientific sense" - but that doesn't mean we'd follow the CCP's politics.

James wrote: "Iain wrote: "Sweden's turning into another Orwellian basket case in other ways. I have my own thoughts on this...."

Well I'm just talking scientifically/medically what's the best way to deal with ..."

Oh right, I thought you meant moving there physically to get away from say an environment where smoke alarms fitted with a speaker emits diktats that you stay in or get tested.

They really ought to get a more Orwellian and authoritarian voice for that thing. I'd say the ideal voice to advertise dystopian measures could come from Aussie actress Jacqueline McKenzie. She'd be a natural in the role. She has the perfect smoke alarm voice and loves totalitarianism as a past time. I hear she has quite the collection of marching songs and jackboots. The largest book collection of dictators and repressive torture techniques in the world, etc. She is the Bill Cayton of autocratic media memorabilia .

But that is the issue is it not? That the science and politics aren't complimenting each other.

It's like one is saying no that person doesn't need drugged up into a slevering zombified stupor with no mind or life and then the other saying yes they need drugged up because it helps them or (the ol famous)it helps others (or maybe they blag the whole lot and make a few bob on the back of that, that a sorta thing. Big Pharma and that bollocks.).

And power and money wins out in most cases doesn't it?

Coronavirus pandemic could push tens of millions into chronic hunger, UN warns

https://www.9news.com.au/world/corona...

That headline above could potentially be reworded to say Coronavirus MEASURES, I'd argue

Iain wrote: "James wrote: "Iain wrote: "Sweden's turning into another Orwellian basket case in other ways. I have my own thoughts on this...."

Well I'm just talking scientifically/medically what's the best way..."

What about a baseline test too mate just for shits and giggles. I just done one there. I was way off baseline.

Eventually I can see this happening though . . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688ZZ...

Iain wrote: "Iain wrote: "James wrote: "Iain wrote: "Sweden's turning into another Orwellian basket case in other ways. I have my own thoughts on this...."

Well I'm just talking scientifically/medically what's..."

Imagine your health(physical, mental, tested status) dictates what your entitled to in life? I could see all sorts of nasty things being took advantage there and using the ol mantra of: "for the greater good" just to add a whiff of chamomile to mask the BS.

James wrote: "That headline above could potentially be reworded to say Coronavirus MEASURES, I'd argue"

Any stats on the immobility effect from lock-down and its impact on carbon emissions and what it has done to the weather to HELP with growing and production of food?

(Even though I know there's biblical like plagues and that going on.)

Is Russell Crowe building an Ark mate do you know? I was thinking having a go myself. They've just opened up Homebase here again.

The argument that Sweden has the best policy rests on herd immunity being 10-20%. Mathematically it has been argued to be about 60 - 70%, and for what it is worth, the one example where observed herd immunity has been observed is with the survivors of airborne Yersinia Pestis - we know the figures because it when people stopped dying.

In Auckland last year there was an outbreak of measles that spread to the non-immune and the vaccination rate had fallen to about 80% It is somewhat too soon to vindicate Sweden's policy.

Ian wrote: "The argument that Sweden has the best policy rests on herd immunity being 10-20%. Mathematically it has been argued to be about 60 - 70%, and for what it is worth, the one example where observed he..."

Ian, what's your thoughts on origin and this mysterious "patient-0"?

Given the circumstances we now find ourselves in and the political, medical and sociological cascade(which is still unfolding), what's your thoughts on origin in terms of it coming naturally from a bat or a pangolin(whatever?) and transference to a human, to that of it being accidentally or purposely released to it being modified to suit or lab grown?

And if your opinion is that it isn't a natural occurrence, what's the 'modus operandi?' What's the objective?

Just curious your opinion due your extensive background and experience in a number of fields and some of that being during the height of the Cold War where something like this would benefit a Bad Actor greatly . . .

Iain, I really don't know how/where it originated. The evidence is strongly in favour of it originating in a bat, but how it made the transference to humans is an open question.

Another disturbing possibility - the antibodies seem to decline and fade away in patients that have been infected and recovered. If so, that means herd immunity is impossible. If that sounds ridiculous, about a third of the common cold cases are caused buy corona viruses and we have no herd immunity to them. A link to the work.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid-1...
On our radio this mornjng there was a report that this has been confirmed by a British study, but I can't find qa link. If it is true and immunity is that brief, the search for a vaccine is a waste of time.

I hope they don't bring in that Blade Runner baseline test in Rona measures to keep us "safe", Iain. Surely we aren't close to that extreme, but I'll discount nothing... Almost anything is currently being justified in the name of this virus...

Ian J Miller, my youngest who is a nurse, has been speaking for months to me about masks, and how they are useless for the general population. Health professionals know how to wear them, but still make mistakes, L, is often leaping down thr throats, because he's a senior nurse with experience.