Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

I have added a great and informative video to the groups videos and moved the groups videos to the top of the main page for a little while.

One video is the trailer for one of our June Group Read Rome: The Emperor's Spy (sorry Inquisition June readers there was no trailer for Inquisition).
The other video is a rather educational video on the mighty Roman military machine.

Enjoy!

We have just reached over 500 members!!!!! Woohoo!
Welcome all 502 (as of this post) members of A&M - newbies and oldies - glad to have all of you on board the A&M boat. :)

Yay! :D

Well! Must have the 300 photos we posted...

I agree with Diana.

Chris and his stats...... :)

I don't think I can help with this one though!

Diana wrote: "Well! Must have the 300 photos we posted..."

I know it is why 'I' stay. :-)

Chris,
I have an informal one in my head. I think what is interesting is the events that created growth. There was always a catalyst. Everytime I saw numbers jump there had been some kind of catalyst.

While we were very small, starting out, it stayed stagnant for a while., because nobody knew of us.
Like all things, if you want to reach the people, you have to 'reach' the people. The first little influx came after I set up some threads for popular topics, Vikings for example....What Are You Reading Now thread..another example.
But I found the biggest bump in the early days came when we did our first buddy read. Of Byzantium. This was the first time I sent out a broadcast to all members. It brought a few more active members, which in turn brought more members to our total.
Each group read broadcast brought a few more and a few more.
Then we had a steady increase of a few every week. Then GR brought out the banner feature and this changed it all.
It allowed me to create an ambiance of a sort. An eyecatching banner helped to show people what we were about. Helped people get a feel for the place without having to read threads to catch onto our vibe.
But still, there was no huge rush.
The major change came when GR included our banner and group title in their May newsletter. It went from 176 or 179 members on May 30, to over 500 as May draws to an end.
That was the big one. That May newsletter has helped people find us. :-) I really owe GR for that. Now people have found us I see a bright future ahead!

Hey Chris....some stats for you:


September..13
October....12
November...9
December...15
January....23
February...25
March......39
April......48
May........321

I'm off by 1 somewhere but as a month by month join pattern I thought it was close enough.

There were 173 on April 29, the big spike in numbers starts on April 30th with 11 joining and from then to now we've added 332 members.
The biggest day for member increase was May 10th with a total of 38 in one day.

Fantastic! I thought about doing this myself, but decided it would give me a headache. Thankyou very much for doing this Dawn.

I can see the influx I spoke of when I sent out the first group broadcast about a group read. I sent that out in January.

The majority of our January joins were in the later half of January with 14 of them after the 18th.

I have a nice spreadsheet now..........

Excellent. Keep that spreadsheet going. :-)

Well that fits then doesn't it. I usually send the broadcast just after the middle of the month. Around the 20th. I can't recall the date of that first one though.

Gender Bending

I posted this link earlier and then deleted it because I thought it was out of place on this board. I'm re-posting it because it is actually rather fun.

http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.php

This is a test to see what gender you (or some other writer) probably are based on words that are used in a piece of writing. Some tend to be used by more masculine types some by more feminine types. It claims to be able to tell which you are.

Personally, I think it's a pile of hooey, but for the heck of it I submitted two pieces of writing. I write in Third Person (usually). I plugged in one chapter where the main character is male. I then submitted another that followed the actions of the female main character.

Interestingly, the one following the man's actions was judged to have been written by a man; the one following the woman was judged to have been written by a female. Try it with something of your own or else a bit of a book you're reading.

(Note: I had a story, first person, involving a troop of mercenaries in a civilization that resembled the late middle ages. A friend informed me that I must have lived before as a man, since that was such a 'manly' story. Uh huh...)

I have noticed, after reading this post about the gender predicting website, that most of my google ads on GR are male oriented ads. I do have female in my profile, but I feel maybe the google ads are going more on my posts and book tastes and therefore it thinks I am a dude, because I don't have a regular chicks tste in books.

Obviously the ads think I'm just plain weird, since weird books are all that they show me. Maybe that means they think I'm male - since men are weird??? (Uh-oh! the Saxon contingent will be after me with halberds and broadswords!)

Lol. :-)

Do ypu get the animated ads for other stuff? I never even look at the books that are being suggested in the right hand column. But I see those annoying paid ads for dating agencies, defense force, cleaning products in the right hand column. On my laptop I have a program that blocks them. On my tablet there os no such progrm and I have to put up with them.

Your ads sound better than mine, I keep getting something about a 'Changling' book and a 'City of lost souls' book and another about diamond rings. They must think I'm into romances and I want an engagemet ring.... :)

Romantic Scenes in Historic Fiction
OK, I've been kicking this around for a while and I know what I like and don't like. The question has to do with 'romantic' scenes. I'm using a euphemism. I don't mean scenes where they rape, kill, pillage and burn - things that have occurred in history. I don't care for a lot of drooling detail, but I'm OK with knowing that horrid things have happened.

I am speaking of a book involving an historic character (NOT Casanova) where the writer follows the character(s) into the bedroom (or yurt or pavilion or whatever) and sits the reader down to watch. I have read my share of trashy so-called romances that didn't have a lot to do with real romance. But historical novels are different.

The question comes up (for me) because I am currently writing about a man who actually lived and was considered a great king. We don't know much about his private life. He was born non-royal, became royal when his father was named Crown Prince by an army buddy who became king. He had one wife and perhaps four children. His reign was considered very distinguished, but much too short.

In my story he suffers a terrible blow when his son is killed, and he has to get out of the public eye to catch his breath and heal. He is widowed. In the course of the story he meets a woman and a quiet love story is woven in. No sighing and longing looks or anything like that. The liaison has to take place because in a later book I have a character who is the descendant of the child born of that union.

Here is one of the two scenes in the book. He is leaving; they have said their farewells - their lives are moving apart - and he has told her who he is:

"Were there other women?"

"Before my wife? Perhaps one. I was very young... Only you, afterward. Will you take the necklace?"

She framed his face between her hands. "I will take it," she said. "And I tell you now that I will always love you, whatever the future brings. And I will think of you with contentment over the years." Her eyes were wide in the night. "I'll miss you."

He set gentle fingertips under her chin and tipped her face up to his as her hands slid behind his neck and drew him down to her. "I will miss you, too, 'Beautiful one'," he said.

She raised her hand to stroke through his hair as the setting sun painted the old hills and valleys rose and gold below the stars. "But you are not leaving yet," she said as she drew his face down to hers.

"No," he said with an answering smile. "Not just yet."

I'm not comfortable writing more than that. First of all, it isn't necessary. The story has a thread of their friendshp, but it is not a romance story. Also, to me, there's somethign wrong about taking that sort of liberties with a real charater.

Any thoughts?

(Edited to add: forgive the rough draft, folks...)

Well, I want to elaborate more, but I have to go fix lunch for the worker when he gets into the house from the paddock.

In the books I like, that would be ample touchy, feely. For me this bit that I have underlined below, would make me go errrr, if I were reading it, as it is too much 'chicks are into touching stuff in their novels' type description for my tastes. LOL! But for most women and men I am sure this would not be a problem.
It is also out of context. If i were reading the book it would be so quick and over in a flash that I may not even notice it enough to go errrrr. :)

He set gentle fingertips under her chin and tipped her face up to his as her hands slid behind his neck and drew him down to her.

Hm. Good point. That's flirting with 'too much information', I agree. Difficult to get the balance, and while the liaison is necessary and flows logically from what has happened in the story, it's only one of many parts of the story, and not the main point of the book.

About romance in books. In another thread we mentioned books about Charles Finch: his character is in love with a woman, that he marries after a couple of books - so we can say there's a romance thread, but you don't have any "romantic" scenes. I'm aware that I can't express myself well, but if you are familiar with his work you'll understand what I mean.
I find particularly disturbing the kind of romantic dialogues in which the male character says things that maybe a woman would want to hear - but no man would actually say, or do.
About sex in books. I often feel it unnecessary, but sometimes it feels right - the problem is that it's difficult to find sexy sex - if you know what I mean.

Let us know when the book will be published, I'm curious now!

Simona wrote: "the problem is that it's difficult to find sexy sex - if you know what I mean..."

I do know exactly what you mean.

You mentioned male characters saying what they wouldn't say in real life. I agree, but there is that problem with historical fiction where many stories are set in a time when words of love and promise were highly valued. Hard to find that balance that's for sure. Historical and realistic. How does one get that right?
Much thought, and really knowing the era?

If you read the Saxon series by Bernard Cornwell you will find no love story and romance in Uhtred's life. Women turn up in his life and it is a friendship kind of relationship. It is implied that they seek each other at night. But it is never described.
The Oathsworn Series by Robert Low. No love story or romance AT ALL!! Like seriously, it just isn't there. The women are just characters in the story like the men. other than a boyhood crush in the first book, that is all.
The Khan series by Conn Iggulden
Zero romance. A detached, impersonal love story intertwined in the first book as it is important to the Ghengis Khan story, but that is it for the rest of the series.
Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield. Another of my fave HF novels.
Some mild hints of loving wives, but not much more than hints. They are more just man/wife interactions.

In saying all this, I have a man's taste in books for the most part and am probably the worst to talk on romance. Most women I know that read HF or women who read such books as The Help (chick lit) or all those books with women on the covers in medieval or Tudor dresses, these readers are going to lap up a man touching a woman under the chin to tip it up.

How you appeal to all markets is a tough one. So which market is bigger and more profitable? Men oriented books, women oriented books, or books that appeal to women who read male oriented books because they don't like the emotional manipulation of romances and love story dramas..
I personally think, it is the women readers who own the market right now.

Hi, both -
The touch under the chin was problematic. Her framing his face ditto. Putting arms about his neck - not so bad. This is a leave-taking and he's made a promise.

I should paste in the other 'love' scene for the heck of it:

He smiled and shook his head. "Time changes from moment to moment, as I've discovered. Swift as a torrent, then an agony of slowness. One moment life stretches before you into eternity - and the next you find that the years have passed, leaving you wondering where they went." He looked at the dark windows. "But they aren't likely to look at us and wonder what we've been up to."

"I don't care what they think," she said.

"You should," he countered. "You can't live a lie - and you don't want a lie to color your reputation."

She stopped and faced him. "Do you care?"

"You know I do."

She turned to him when she reached her house. "Answer me this," she said. "Have you settled things in your heart?" (she knows that his son had died suddenly)

He smiled ruefully. "I hardly know how I feel about many things," he admitted. "This has been a time for remembering, for me. And the memories have not been easy."

They were at her doorway. There were so many things to say, and no words with which to say them. She had the breathless feeling that time was running out. She turned, facing him full. "Stay with me tonight," she said.

His frown appeared for a moment. "I did not expect to be invited in simply because I escorted you home," he said.

She lifted her chin and looked at him. "The invitation was not issued because I wished to pay you for keeping nonexistent wolves at bay," she said. "And I cannot imagine that a man of your quality would expect such a payment, no matter what service was rendered."

His expression was an odd mixture of regret and assent. "I can promise you nothing," he said.

"I am not looking for promises," she said. "I only want your company through this night."

"For kindness' sake?" he asked.

She smiled more deeply. "No," she said. "Because I love you.'

"Nefer - " He looked down and away from her. "Please understand: I can't make any promises, ever."

"I need no promise," she returned. "No keepsake to treasure. Only your company this night. I know it can't be for long. Our lives are moving apart. What drew you here is losing its strength, and I think you will soon be gone from my life. But during this time
that we have been together I have come to love you."

He raised his eyes to hers; she caught a lurking smile and returned it.

"No promise," he said. "Why?"

"I love you, that is all," she said.

He looked down at her, at the curve of her mouth, the smiling eyes that were so like Tuia's, gone now for a year. Shadows, but so sadly mourned and missed. And this woman - so calm and kind, so gallant - And, he realized, so dear to him now...

He kissed her.

That's it. (Tuia's his wife who died the year before)

On who to write to: you do have to keep your audience in mind but (quoting Polonius in his only good speech in Hamlet) To thine own self be true. People spot fakers and you end up not liking yourself.

so... I'm not a voyeur, and if I wanted to read trashy romances, I would. and I don't like playing with my readers' emotions.

Terri, I agree with you. Among friends, women are definitely the most avid readers.
(My husband is able to yawn and go to sleep in the middle of a scene of a book that kept me awake half night).

It's true that relationship between men and women weren't, in other ages, what we know now; but serious authors usually can make their dialogues sound good, at least to my ignorant ears.
I didn't mean, however, that the male character would have to say things consistent with the time of the story. I meant just that authors writing (bad) romance make their heroes say words that no man would say if not under serious pressure - and that can make me retourn the book directly to the library.

Yes, there are definitely some authors (women authors as is generally the case) that do make their lovers or their men say things they wouldn't say. I have rejected books for the same readon.
So many female authors can't think like a man. Men don't think and talk like us, it is a fact, and so many women authors make male characters too cluttered in their emotions and preoccupations and words, they make them sound much like women.

Now...what has Diana written here....I have some reading to do...:-)

This is a good passage for my tastes, Diana. You have the woman being all woman-like, emoting, soft, wordy. And other than talking about his healing, the man is simple in his words, not over thinking the situation, man-like.

I find that an acceptable moment between man and woman. Not gushy, not over done. I would also expect it to end there. I wouldn't need to read what they did after she invited him in. You have stated that he is being invited in for some fun between the sheets so the reader knows what happens. You could easily end a chapter or a segment or jump to the next scene from there. Many authors would go on to elaborate on what goes on once he accepts the invitation. I wouldn't need that. :-)

Of course I am asssuming that she is inviting him in for some fun between the sheets and not a Mint Julep and a game of Bridge only to fall asleep in seperate rooms. :-) lol.
But then that is the beauty of the implied sex scene. You don't need to know what they get up to. It is the characters private business.

@Terri -
I haven't had a julep in years. And I used to like them...

@Simona and Terri

I think a lot of the evils we've discussed arise from an author not knowing his or her characters or thinking things through - would he be likely to say or do this? Would she give him house room? Or (going along with that) having too strict a plan for the story, which leads to 'making' a character do something. They grow (often) in the course of writing, and you have to adjust things to fit their nature and reality. I have a main character who started as a quasi-villain.

With this scene (and the rest of the book) I had the man assessed as intelligent and also very direct. He spent a decade and a half as a vizier, but he was also a general. Once I had that settled (and I'd dealt with him in a prior book as a non-royal person) I was able to imagine how he would deal with things, and what would make him nearly break.

I wonder if the flowery speeches that we object to were set pieces plugged in at the spot the author wanted them to be, whether or not the characters were ready for them...

I think a lot of flowery speeches and making a male character too much like a woman also comes a lot from an author living out fantasy instead of writing a story. Essentially, an author is a storyteller. Like the storyteller in James M. Hockey's book, it is about pleasing yourself, yes, but also pleasing and appealing to the audience. We write for ourselves, we publish for others (most of the time). If an author wants to be read they need to get the scales aligned on the perfect amount of pleasing oneself and appealing to an audience.
Many writers get lost in their characters satisfying them. Living out fantasy. The male character, for many women authors, must perform and do what the woman writer would like him to do and it becomes less about the audience and more about personal preference.

Covers for Historical Fictioni

I am looking at a book cover. It shows a woman standing against what appears to be the arched door of a castle-cum-cathedral. Gray stone; apparently Gothic construction. You can see crenellated walls in the background

The woman is wearing a high-waisted dress of a rich red. The tight sleeves are sewn to the elbow and then fall open to the wrist (that is to say, the seam is not completed. The dress has a vaguely medieval look to it; there is no gathering in the waist, no panniers, no bustle no evidence of anything resembling a corset. It looks, in fact, like a 'peasant dress' such as was popular in the US in the mid 70's.

The woman has long, straight blonde hair, which falls unbound to her mid-arms. What appears to be a wire tiara sits around the woman's forehead. Anyone see Romeo & Juliet back in the 70's? This dress is less structured than Juliet's dresses.

The author mentioned the cover as something that is lovely, costly and very effective.

The problem is that the book is set in the France of Louis XIV, just at the time that the Edict of Nantes was revoked in 1685.

An unhistorical cover for an historical novel. What think you?

Note: the book is written by a charming and delightful lady and I am not going to link to it. The book itself is good enough - the author tells of her ancestors who left France at that time.

What do you think? If a cover portrays a character in a novel, sh0uld it be historically accurate? I happen to think it should.

I happen to think it should yes. I am surprised that someone writing about 17th century France would not make sure that costumes on the cover are close to accurate.

Many of the women that I know on GR who read historical fiction (not historical romance, as I know from back over a decade ago when I used to read the odd one of those that the dresses rarely matched the era) would pick that up and be critical. It would no doubt get a mention in a review.

The historical fiction that is marketed to women, the readers of that stuff, would not like that. I am sure.
I personally think if there's a woman on the cover then it is not for me. lol

"I wonder if the flowery speeches that we object to were set pieces plugged in at the spot the author wanted them to be, whether or not the characters were ready for them... "

Yes, I think so, absolutely.
I think sometimes authors like too much some passages they've written and use them no matter what.
I'm a textile designer, and I see this also in my line of work. I see patterns too cluttered, or too empty, or too complicated but often the person who did the work doesn't see the problem because he LIKES what he's done, and stops to be objective.

I find that the kind of cover you describe immediately identify the novel as trash - good authors should run from this kind of work as they would run from the plague.

I like well designed textiles and can imagine the problems designers may have with editing their work. :)

Take the woman's saying when putting on jewellery. Before you leave the house, put on all the jewellery you think you want to wear then look in the mirror and take one off.
Edit, edit, edit. It is so important in all areas of our work and our lives.

Terri wrote: But then that is the beauty of the implied sex scene. You don't need to know what they get up to. It is the characters private business.

If I may weigh in on the "romantic" subject. As a reader, I do expect a human (love) interest of the characters I am supposed to find sympatico. But explicit stuff - no, thanks. As a writer, it sometimes presents a conundrum. One of my teachers said: "Have a glass of wine or two, then write away. But for Heaven's sake, don't forget to edit out the mush the next morning."

Here is how I handled one scene (without the wine) in "Khamsin."

Darkness hung over the Upper Region of the Two Lands, near the Karga Oasis.
. . . A good two hours’ donkey-ride from the main encampment of King Aha’s Fourth Army, three small tents huddled in the lee of a barren hillock. The entrance flap of the main tent was thrown open allowing the cool desert air to cleanse the dark interior of the pungent smell of passion.

The man had spent his seed with unhurried maturity, savoring the ebb and flow of his pleasure. The girl, as usual, had clawed and defied and ensnared him. She was a beautiful desert girl, and he knew that she was greedy. But how she could harden the pillar of his Mehyt.

. . . (General Ali el’Barum, Commander of King Aha’s Fourth Army of Amun) stretched in the cool night air and smiled at the beneficial bargain he had struck in this inhospitable desert. Naked, caressed by a light breeze, his thoughts dwelled on soft brown arms and smooth thighs. Yes, he was much taken with the unruly young woman waiting in his tent. ...

Good description, Inge! But I'd characterize this particular passage as character revelation. It gives a good idea of the character of General Ali - sensual, determined, definitely masculine - but the woman is not (that I can tell) a character that is followed in the book except. Correct me if I'm wrong. She may become a key player in the course of the story...

Diana wrote: "Good description, Inge! But I'd characterize this particular passage as character revelation..."

Diana,

As always, your perceptions are spot-on. I wish you had been my Beta-reader. And you are correct (... the girl does appear briefly later on though). On the "advice" of an agent long ago, I - the gullible novice - added some "lurid scenes" and then took them out later ... heck, if I can't stand people kissing like gaping carps, why would the readers.

It's a gamble we take. Otherwise, people might as well read non-fiction - which, incidentally (like "Voltaire in Love" - just as an example) spread plenty of delicious morsels.

I think that was okay. Brief enough. I do have to admit with all honesty that I loathe the term 'seed'. :-)

Fair enough. But I am just a foreigner trying to grasp another language - what would you have said - semen?

Nope, I would not have mentioned it at all.
I would have said..
The man was spent with unhurried maturity. Or. The man had spent himself with unhurried maturity.

Inge H. wrote: "Fair enough. But I am just a foreigner trying to grasp another language - what would you have said - semen?"

I'd keep that word - it has various connotations and associations that are appropriate, whether or not the term itself is liked.

What might you use?
'He exercised his loins'? (in Mika Waltari's book The Egyptian they're always exposing their loins or putting their hands on each others loins... I kept thinking of pork roasts.)

'He 'knew' her thoroughly'? (Makes me think of polite introductions.

Nope - keep it (for all mof me)

And, Inge, your use of this difficult language is far better than many native speakers I've read.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't take it out. Most women probably don't have a problem with it. It is a common word in historical romance books and that is why I loathe its use in historical fiction, that is all. Don't worry about my personal tastes. :-)

Diana wrote: "I'd keep that word - it has various connotations and associations that ..."

Diana - surprising champion of the loins - as they say here in the South: "Bless you."

Terri wrote: "It is an over used common word in historical romance books and that is why I loathe its use in historical fiction..."

Hm...
manly spear
throbbing loins
impudent breasts (hers, not his)


I gave up on allegedly historical romance a while ago. I can imagine few worse hells than being stuck in an airport with nothing to read but bodice rippers.

Oh gawd. What a thought! Stuck on a desert island or airport with historical smut books. I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. :-)

I seem to have a flair for inciting contention when none is intended. And now, I shrink away in a corner with my "smut" novel.

But your novel isn't smut, Inge is it? It's not historical romance it is historical fiction isn't it?

Please don't be offended by the term smut if it is historical romance. It is what it is called on Goodreads. Even by people who love it. It's an affectionate term people use for the genre. I am so used to seeing and using the word on goodreads. It is part of the Goodreads social family.

Inge H. wrote: "I seem to have a flair for inciting contention when none is intended. And now, I shrink away in a corner with my "smut" novel."

No, no, no! We are not speaking of your novel, which is not a bodice-ripper or 'smut' at all! Have you read the type we are speaking of? Go to 'the anti-bodice-ripper thread' and look at the first picture.

I've read your excerpt and it is not that at all!

Come back, sit down, cut a slice of Sachertorte and accept a glass of champagne from me. (By the way, a local vintner has come up with a magnificently dry sparkler using Riesling grapes!)

Yes, that first picture in the Bodice Ripper thread is what We mean by smut and bodice ripper.
Enjoy a champers with Diana. :-) No offense was meant to your book. We were teasing the smutty, pump 'em out the factory line daily type romance books.

Aw,I can feel the warmth. Don't you think it's awesome.Within minutes (if everyone is still awake), we are in touch from Australia (Terri) to Great Britain (James) to Italy (Simona), and Germany and the good old USA (Diana and me and others). And - just like buying that magazine for the articles and not the pictures - I'll keep looking at Fabio until my eyes water. And as to the "Spartans" I meant to say that my father wore bathing suits like that since I can remember! Eat your puritan hearts out, people.