Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

Terri wrote: "For someone who said it was okay for me to say what I said before you sure aren't acting like it."

That's the problem with writing rather than speaking. You don't get the tone and meaning.

I've been enjoying the discussion - kicking the concepts around and hearing what's being said and thinking it through. However if it is coming across as combative and hurtful -as it apparently is - I'll remove it. It certainly wasn't my intent.

Do watch 'Cheap flights' and have a laugh on me!

Terri wrote: "Okay, lets do this. :) hehe

When it is used in books, in this case HF, it is not generally used as lazy grammar. It is the author's personal preference. It is how the author likes to write 'they're' as opposed to 'they are'.

You may also find a cultural difference in my Queen's English and the American English. I am not sure. I know there are differences between our English that goes far beyond just differences in spelling.

I was taught not to use them in formal or creative writing as part of my schooling. That it is bad form and function..."

Point taken and valid.

When I said '.bla..bla..sure aren't acting like it..' you posted at the same time so I didn't get your message where you acknowledged that the credentials thing did sound like a sneer. Thankyou for that acknowledgement. :)

Can I give an example of what I mean?

I am sure if you flick through a James Hockey book you will rarely see any of these..they've, they're, should've, couldn't, won't, she'll, hasn't, wasn't. (I better check that before I use him as an example..)
phew, yes, check Rood. Apart from the occasional don't, you will rarely see an apostrophe show up in anything but in the possessive.
James' dialogue always feel of its age, it never feels modern to me and it was something I really liked about his writing style. When he uses the apostrophe it is for slang contractions used in the context of a heavily stilted dialect.
The inclusion of those contractions makes dialogue feel more modern.
Although, it feels a lot less modern when used when the character is in a real hurry or in some state of urgency. "We'll save her!"

Re: creative writing instructors
I don't know on that one. I suppose most would be published authors.
My Auntie, who as mentioned is an English teacher at a prestigious Girl's College in Melbourne, is an author of poetry and has published some poetry books and has also written a book on creative writing.
I also know someone who used to be a Professor at a Queensland University who teaches English and creative writing and I assume he is published, but can't say for sure.

To others who have come across these last few posts and are confused at what's being said. Diana and I got a big crossed up for a second and were debating on different things and got a tad tight worded with each other.
First and foremost we are friends and given that, we thought it was counter productive to argue.
We therefore both wiped some posts out to make it more about the initial debate regarding apostrophes and less about crossed wires.

Terri wrote: "First and foremost we are friends and given that, we thought it was counter productive to argue.
We therefore both wiped some posts out to make it more about the initial debate regarding apostrophes and less about crossed wires..."

Precisely put. I also forgot which thread I was posting on - I was also posting on the issue of older versions of modern...ah...naughty words, over on one of the Roman threads. It being very early in the morning and I being very tired, I got mixed up, stepped back, said "Oh, Gawd!" and adjusted things.

Just posted this message on a couple other threads.
__________________________________________________

If anyone had intended on downloading a free copy of James' book The Axe the Shield and the Triton then you have less than 48 hours to do it.

Now James Hockey has finally got this book as an official ebook available on Kindle and Nook, there is no need to spoil people with having it for free anymore.

The main reason he put it up for free download was because it was only available in paperback form..until now..

Endings or main plot spoilers in the start of books

I have a real problem with major endings at the start of a story. I also have a real problem with major plot points given up at the start of a book.

There are some endings or plotlines at the beginnings of books that i don't have a problem with, but when they give away too much, it feels like a spoiler and it can ruin a book for me.

Shieldwall for example. The opening chapter of the book felt good. I was caught up in the story only to find that the main character dies a chapter in and the story goes back a few years before.
It wasn't one of those cases where the main character is narrating and he is like 80 and he reflects on his youth.

I lost interest in the book because it felt like a major spoiler had been given up.
By killing that character off in the way the author did, it basically said, don't get invested in this character because he's dead halfway through the book.

I hate this in movies or tv shows too. I don't like endings at the beginning, or 'later down the track' at the beginning.

I am sitting herfe with thumping and banging going on overhead. I have to have my roof replaced and they started at 7:30. This is bad for a Night Owl, and someone who stays up until 2-3 AM reading. I had to borrow the money from a friend,just when things were getting a bit better. Thank God for Kindle Freebies and the library or I would really be in trouble. If there are typos, please forgive as I am half asleep still.

Hey, nice new avi Terri. It took me this long to register that it was new.... :)

Are you kidding me!? Hahaha? I've had it for a few days.
Nothing gets passed you. :-)

Yep, that's me.....it's impossible to sneak something like that by. :)

Hahaha. ;D

Terri wrote: "Endings or main plot spoilers in the start of books
I have a real problem with major endings at the start of a story. I also have a real problem with major plot points given up at the start of a b..."

I can like foreshadowings, adumbrations, even an acknowledgement that a character won't last the book. This can work for atmosphere, sense of inevitability, poignancy, or for irony. Can even attach you to him (like Achilles - he just sprang to mind as the great example). But nah, don't depict a main character's death when we've only just met him. It's a waste of a death for one thing: we won't care now, and we lose the emotion we'd have had later. Dissipates the effect.

(There are always exceptions. I don't doubt this can be done fantastically).

I agree, there will be exceptions. I am trying to think of one and I can't although there must be. I also can't think of one that had a main death like this.

The character wakes up, the author spends goodly amount of time using a chapter to build the character and I am enjoying the chacter and can't wait to get to know where he goes from there. then he carks it. Then just like that, the story is back with him a few years earlier..and I am supposed to invest in him now? It felt like a waste of my mental energy to invest in a character that has no importance to the book or the story anymore.

It's like having all the bunnies die in the start of Watership Down. :/
If they had, would it be worth investing time in the bunnies from there on? If you know there is no point? They all die anyway?
I know, odd comparison there. :-)

I prefer to be surprised in a book. I like the rollercoaster ride. If someone dies suddenly, then I want it to be in timeline during the book.

Terri wrote: "The character wakes up, the author spends goodly amount of time using a chapter to build the character and I am enjoying the chacter and can't wait to get to know where he goes from there. then he carks it. Then just like that, the story is back with him a few years earlier..and I am supposed to invest in him now? It felt like a waste of my mental energy to invest in a character that has no importance to the book or the story anymore..."

It is what I would call 'a crime committed in the name of art'. Done to be artsy. It is also 'playing with your audience's emotions'.

Did anyone read


Cold Mountain

A similar crime was committed.

(view spoiler)[After all sorts of vicissitudes, comings and goings, the main character is able to meet with and win his true love, they are happy together, all is well - and then, in about five seconds he is shot and the last scene with him has him dying with his head in his true love's lap. And this is supposed to be an uplifting ending. ...well, the little valley prospers - but really--! (hide spoiler)]

There are certain actions that must be followed in literature (and I don't just mean 'literary fiction') happenings must flow logically from the plot. Yes, random things happen in life, but in the microcosm of a story they can't be unexpected or unconscionable. The world must be built. To do otherwise is either a cop-out (like where a main character is killed in the last chapter because the author isn't up to digging him out of the mess he's in) or a deliberate wrong to your readers.

*cough* lecture over. I am now firing up Scrivener and polishing a (logical) death scene.

Diana wrote: "Terri wrote: "The character wakes up, the author spends goodly amount of time using a chapter to build the character and I am enjoying the chacter and can't wait to get to know where he goes from t..."

Since this is the Random Thoughts, discussion.
Diana, how do you like the Scrivener program? I see you mentioned it above. Worth getting? User-friendly?
Cheers.

Adam wrote: "Diana, how do you like the Scrivener program? I see you mentioned it above. Worth getting? User-friendly?..."

Here is a blog post I wrote on Scrivener:

http://dianawilder.blogspot.com/2012/...

Diana wrote: "Adam wrote: "Diana, how do you like the Scrivener program? I see you mentioned it above. Worth getting? User-friendly?..."

I find it invaluable, Adam. It is inexpensive $40 in the US (what is tha..."

Thanks Diana! I'll check out your blog on it. I had read someone else's post about Scrivener the other day and they did not like it all, said they were going back to Word. I found that hard to believe as so many people have told me they love it. My current computer is held together by virtual bandages so, when I get a new one, I'm guessing Scrivener will be on there. Cheers :)

Diana wrote: "Adam wrote: "Diana, how do you like the Scrivener program? I see you mentioned it above. Worth getting? User-friendly?..."

I find it invaluable, Adam. It is inexpensive $40 in the US (what is tha..."

Hi Diana,
I have Scrivener but I don't use it even though I hate Word with a passion. The thing is that Word converts easily to In Design which converts to PDF using Adobe Distiller and thats the only route to go for uploading to POD Lightning Source. I've not used Scrivener because I don't want to invest time in something which I will not then be able to use for the end result I want. Of course in my case I could drop Word out and write directly into In Design but after several years of frustration and fury I understand Word better.

How do you progress from Scrivener to publication?

Thanks for that Diana but here's my problem. I can write directly to Word and Word will convert direct to PDF as you show Scrivener does. Where the wheel comes off the wagon is that that version of PDF will not upload to Lightning Source without gross errors. Only a PDF created through Adobe Distiller will do. The hitch then is that only In-Design and not Word will process through Distiller.
I don't know whether the PDF from Scrivener will process correctly. Maybe one day when I have time to spare I'll try it out on something small.

Guys,
I want to try and say this nicely.

This is a Random Thoughts thread, as Adam mentioned, but it is not for author discussions of this nature.
I created a whole folder for authors to discuss their art with each other.
If you are a historical fiction author and are looking for some feedback from readers, as Diana has done in here before, then this is quite alright.
But please go here to post your questions to other authors or have discussions with other authors on programs and writing.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Terri wrote: "Guys,
I want to try and say this nicely.

This is a Random Thoughts thread, as Adam mentioned, but it is not for author discussions of this nature.
I created a whole folder for authors to discuss t..."
Apologies. Absolutely right, Terri. I'm afraid I started a Scrivener avalanche.

Ok. Here's my random thought: Why does a cubicle, no matter how big it is or how much natural light you have, always feel small?

Terri wrote: "Guys,
I want to try and say this nicely.

But please go here to post your questions to other authors or have discussions with other authors on programs and writing.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
..."

Cool.

Thanks guys.
I appreciate the understanding.

Terri wrote: "Thanks guys.
I appreciate the understanding."

Oooops Terri, Rogerthat

:-) You authors can talk author related stuff until the cows come home. Someone had to shut the gate a little. Lol!

I am back with a new N2A chip. I just hope it is legal. I wish I could answer that cubicle question. Sounds interesting. *Whisper: Have any of you ever played ANGRY BIRDS? It came with the N2A card. It is so funny!

I have played Angry Birds. lol
Linda playing Angry Birds. hahaha. That tickles me pink. :)

When I first got my android Tablet I was addicted to Angry Birds for a month. Then I seemed to get over it and rarely play it anymore. Maybe 15 minutes a month now.

The cubicle question: My son says it is because you don't have an office.
Terri playing Angry Birds is a big hoot! Don't you miss their chatter? "Ouch!" "Get 'im, get 'im."

I have to admit, I never had a chance to miss the chatter. Even during the month I was addicted to Angry Birds I always had the volume turned off because the chatter was irritating me. lol.

Historical - Fiction? What?

OK, folks, I have a classification question.

Let's say that I have a fabulous idea for a novel. The setting is historical, which is to say that it is set in a period of time that existed, and has characters that existed.

However (let's say) in doing my research, I discover that the actors who play out this really nifty, heart-wrenching, poignant and (whatever) story apparently never had this conflict and event. In fact, the hero apparently had a calm, quiet, well-ordered life without a lot of angst.

But you have this wonderful story. So...you invent a hero, place him in the setting, adjust the succession (we're dealing with a king), fabricate a...let's say revolt...

It's all invention. No supernatural (unless you count the fact that the hero knows and deals with various clergy and is, himself, a believer). No wizards, sorcerers, ghosts - whatever.

The period is accurate (except for the events of the story).

So how would it be classified?

If you are dealing with adjusting succession and changing a known royal family lineage would that make it alternate history do you think?

I'll add that I do believe making up a revolt, making up a hero and inventing a plotline into prominent existing history is still historical fiction. Twisting historical fact to create a good story is still hf to me. It is only when you rearrange popular history that I believe it goes into alternate history realms.

An example..if someone writes a novel and makes it so that Harold wins at Hastings and retains the throne.
I would call that alternate history and not historical fiction.

Diana wrote: "Historical - Fiction? What?

OK, folks, I have a classification question.

Let's say that I have a fabulous idea for a novel. The setting is historical, which is to say that it is set in a period..."

If the hero is in a position of power you have the opportunity to create a double layered story. What happened and how it was covered up to create the myth of an apparently placid life. Then it would be true history much of which is really myth. We all know the winner of a conflict writes the history. As long as your conflict doesn't involve the death of thousands and the destruction of cities, cover the action up have fictions promulgated to explain the disappearance of characters. Kill the witnesses. Result HF.

James wrote: "As long as your conflict doesn't involve the death of thousands and the destruction of cities, cover the action up have fictions promulgated to explain the disappearance of characters. Kill the witnesses. Result HF..."

Hm. I like the way your nind works...

Terri wrote: "I'll add that I do believe making up a revolt, making up a hero and inventing a plotline into prominent existing history is still historical fiction. Twisting historical fact to create a good story..."

I always seem to get to the discussion late in the game. Ailing computer etc.
Anyway, I agree with Terri. As long has you haven't massively changed the outcome of history, it is still historical fiction. I find one of the great things about writing historical fiction/fantasy is that sometimes, when doing research, there are minute hints at things that might have happened or slight gaps in the historical record. I think that is where the real fun begins and the author can really excavate that idea and turn it into an entire plot line if she/he desires. Just make sure you tell your readers in the historical/author's note at the back.

Now why don't we have 'like' buttons on this site?

Yes, but no 'dislike' button. I wouldn't want that.

That author's note/historical note is so important. It gives the author a chance to let the reader know how the story was formed out of certain historical events. It also gives the author an opportunity to toy with history and then cover their butt by explaining inacuracies in the end.

I guess it does make it all right if you say, "Well, atually, Richard III did not survive Bosworth field, but the corpse identified as him was so battered, there was some doubt it was him."

Is anyone else doing the GR's reading challenge?? I challenged myself to over twice what I read last year and that seems to have inspired me to read so much that I am very close to finishing my challenge.

Dawn wrote: "...that seems to have inspired me to read so much that I am very close to finishing my challenge..."

I am in awe.

lol

It's good for the TBR so I'll be doing it again next year. :)

Alternate history. If it does include magic/supernatural elements, historical fantasy.

Let me throw something into the discussion (after curtseying to Dawn). Let's say we have a king whose rule seems to have been 30 years - the sources all seem to agree with this stretch. He was in a sort of triumvirate for a time, and after his death the two other men ended up effectively splitting the kingdom. There is an indication that one was married to his daughter or niece (in which case she was still the daughter of a king); the other's son was married possibly to a daughter or a niece (ditto as with the first).

The succession is a little confused. Probably not father to son but brother to brother to son to brother. Records are confusing (unless you are consulting Wikipedia, heaven help you, where everything is pat and they don't give their sources). (Malaria in the royal house? Some systemic disease that shortened life?) The last of the dynasty recovered from the disease (possibly) tries to get his kingdom back...

Well, it's an interesting premise and the main character (the last of the line) is an intricate and intriguing personality, one who doesn't want to be king, but is king so must act as king. How is it resolved?

Darned if I know. I may well go into the distant past and invent my own dynasty. Or I may scrap it.

Edited to add I meant to say that I agree that it would be 'alternate history' since some things do happen that really did not (that we know).

Diana wrote: "Let me throw something into the discussion (after curtseying to Dawn). Let's say we have a king whose rule seems to have been 30 years - the sources all seem to agree with this stretch. He was in..."

Is this a real situation, or totally hypothetical? If real, please give further information!

You say "the last of the dynasty recovered from the disease (possibly) tries to get his kingdom back". That's too vague. Cut out the possibly. Either he/she makes the attempt or he/she doesn't. Also, get the kingdom back from what? When was it taken away? Under what circumstances? More information is needed. How does this last person of the dynasty have anything to do with the original triumvirate situation?

If based on real history, I think I'd need to know a lot more in order to have any chance of proposing a solution. If more fiction than fact, I think you need to make a few definite decisions about what the situation is and how things will go, because it sure does sound confusing to me right now.

@Isis - You must understand: I don't pester experts, and if I run into problems with research I go through channels. We all have other things to do than get bugged on our area of expertise by someone on a message board.

For the record, if I were to put it in a completely factual setting, it would be XX dynasty with the protagonist being Ramesses XI.

I have read different accounts of who was related to whom, and I can't escape the impression that there was some sort of systemic disease - like malaria - that had a grip on that family and curtailed their lives.

One regnal list tends to support an interpretation of Ramesses VII, Ramesses IX and Ramesses XI being sons of Ramesses VI. R VI would have been succeeded by R VII and then his son R VIII. If they died without heirs, the next king, R IX would have reigned and then been succeeded by his son, R X. The dates of reign for that entire stretch of kings appears to have been relatively short. (compiled by William Hayes quite a few years ago) Ramesses VI reigned 7, VII 7, VIII 3, Ramesses IX reigned 18 years (a good stretch) , X 7 and then XI ~30. If (in my story) Ramesses XI was a very late or posthumous child, he would have been in his mid thirties when he came to reign.

Whatever the relationship, he appears to have been more or less superseded by Herihor to the south and Nesubanebdedet (Smendes) to the north. If, in my story, he is the youngest son of Ramesses VI and regent for his nephew, Ramesses X (along with another brother...) and he came to the throne with the desire to try to regain lost prestige (for Egypt...) It could be interesting. Or not.

How does this last person of the dynasty have anything to do with the original triumvirate situation?
He was one of the triumvirate (according to some sources). Quite a come-down from what had been the case in the early New Kingdom.

If this is in the pipeline, it's years and years away from being finished, if ever. I certainly wasn't asking anyone to put themselves out looking things up. I simply had the impression of a personality in a setting... An 'old time' king who is in the wrong era and knows it, but must do what he thinks is right...

Dawn wrote: "Is anyone else doing the GR's reading challenge?? I challenged myself to over twice what I read last year and that seems to have inspired me to read so much that I am very close to finishing my cha..."

I'm doing it.
I recently downgraded my 75 books a year challenge target to 65 because I kept getting behind and it was taking the fun out of it. Now I'm 5 in front. :D
Much better.

I've been on a schedule and haven't had time to read (except for
Killer of Men
)

Someone posted about a freebie she had (very hesitant she was) and I uploaded it and will do a review. It's Young Adult - not my usual style, but very good. And I want to read Bryn's first (and review it if I can: I did promise).

But I'm working on a deadline (for me) I must get this 'first finished draft' out of the way. It's just my own deadline, but I can dawdle to a fare-thee-well.

Terri wrote: "I'm doing it.
I recently downgraded my 75 books a year challenge target to 65 because I kept getting behind and it was taking the fun out of it. Now I'm 5 in front. :D
Much better..."

I know what you mean, I have another 6 months to finish but I'm getting obsessed with finishing it sooner. Almost taking the fun out of it but not quite. :)