Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

Inge H. wrote: ".. And as to the "Spartans" I meant to say that my father wore bathing suits like that since I can remember! Eat your puritan hearts out, people."

Lol! Nice one! That gave me quite the giggle!

I never get tired of the novelty of sitting down any time of night and day, logging onto GR and speaking to people from all around the world. It is truly amazing.

It makes me feel a part of the big picture, speaking to the world everyday.

Inge H. wrote: "Aw,I can feel the warmth. Don't you think it's awesome.Within minutes (if everyone is still awake), we are in touch from Australia (Terri) to Great Britain (James) to Italy (Simona), and Germany a..."

Don`t forget us Canadians, we like Americans (most of the time :D) but we hate to be lumped in with them. :)

And I agree that`s it`s very cool to talk about books with people from all over the world. It gives a different perspective on things too....all the different opinions just based on where we all live.

Historical Accuracy necessary in an Historical Novel

I'm pasting in a snippet of a review on a book that got me thinking (the review, not the book, which I will not touch with a barge pole). The review gave the book a three star rating because it was enjoyable, but contained an interesting caution that ties in to something I feel very strongly about with historical fiction.

...In the historical fiction genre, however, I usually assume that the basic plot elements are either provable fact or at least in some way believable to historians. While I read the book, I was shocked to find out that much of what I thought about this period was wrong; when I finished and did research on the subject, I was disappointed to find out that I had been misled by someone who knew better.

The fact that the author, (watzizname), has a doctorate degree in (era) studies made me presume that the contents should not be too far from the "truth". In actuality, the contents bear little resemblance to any defensible version of history. It's not just that conversations and minor characters are created, which is expected. It's not just that unexplained events are explained away in a controversial manner, which is reasonable. The problem is that established facts in history are actually contravened here. If you read this book and take for granted that anything you read is true, you are taking a great risk.

Another reviewer quoted someone else who cited this book as being utterly trustworthy because, after all, the author had a Ph.D. in (era) studies.

So... One would call this book 'alternative history', I think (based on what I know of the book, myself). No, I'm not going to say which book this is.

In my opinion, as this reviewer says so well, a historical novel should stick to established facts and, in the case of a portion where there is doubt, have a plausible and properly set up event. Complete and utter fiction and flights of fancy must be admitted at once..

I've been having this issue with historical fiction myself. I find I have a harder time with a non accurate book the more I already know about the subject. I am more accepting if the subject is little known and the author fesses up in the historical notes.

I also seem to expect more from someone who is a historian, whether they specialize in the era or not.

I have a hard time classifying them as alternate history. I have a set impression of alternate history books as the ones where JFK or Hitler doesn't die or the combustion engine isn't invented and what our world would be like. When the characters are changed but the outcome is still the same I don't think of them as alternate just inaccurate.

There's the thing. I, until recently, classed that as alternate history too. Until I saw people calling history that differs from our known history 'alternate history' I always asssumed it was artistic license.
I mean really, half the history we think is history is probably not even true. We only have patchy archaeology in some cases to prove some histories, and in other cases maybe we have the scribblings of one contemporaneous account, which could be all bollocks, or even writers who are writing after the fact, sometimes centuries later.
We bas a lot of our history on accounts that in a case in a modern court of law would never make the grade.

I don't expect exact history in HF. I expect a fairly good connection to known history, but it is fiction after all. If I want precise history I bust open a non fiction. Hf fiction is more about, for me, a story about characters in an historical setting.
However, if Harold wins at Hastings..this is alternate history. If the battle between William and Harold is fought at Whhitby and not Hastings, then this is alternate history. If Harold is trounced by Harald Hardrada at Stamford Bridge, this is alternate history.
Fiction though it is, I think that it has to stick with that level of known fact.

Terri wrote: "There's the thing. I, until recently, classed that as alternate history too. Until I saw people calling history that differs from our known history 'alternate history' ..."

How about having Menelaus of Sparta and his wife Helen (of Troy) meeting with Homer and having a drink with Ramesses II?

Sounds feasible to me. : Isn't there a famous print of that? Oh no, wait, that was Elvis, Marilyn and James Dean. :D

Terri wrote: "Sounds feasible to me. : Isn't there a famous print of that? Oh no, wait, that was Elvis, Marilyn and James Dean. :D"

I love that print! I grinned when I first saw it.

The book in question does have that, by the way. Post Trojan war, no less. We do know that Troy was part of the Hittite empire, which was contemporary with XISXth dynasty Egypt. Not sure what Sparta was doing then 1200 BCE. And Homer was abnout 600 years after...

And the author has a Ph.D in the subject...

Wow. This from an author who has a PHd in the era? How is this possible? Is it intentionally alternate history maybe?

I must admit, I don't read hf for historical accuracy. I read a lot of history non fiction and I don't need to go to hf for my accuracy.
When I read the fiction, I pay no attention to the history and wonder, did that really happen? And I sure as heck don't believe anything I am being told.
As with all storytellers, you cannot believe everything you are told. I find historical notes good for a little word on what might be true in the story. But if I am reading a book with a Tudor setting (which doesn't happen often lol) I just read the story and enjoy it if it is good. If I want true stories of Henry Tudor? I look for a non fiction.

Terri wrote: "When I read the fiction, I pay no attention to the history and wonder, did that really happen? And I sure as heck don't believe anything I am being told..."

You know, that's a great way of putting it, and I agree. But if someone presents him- or herself as an expert, that's another matter. I'm not trying to beat anyone up, and the writer in question has a great following who have really enjoyed their books, so they have done a good work and for all of me can enjoy their well-earned success.

(But that doesn't mean I can't hoist an eyebrow...)

I do agree with that too. If someone is an expert in an era, I have a certain expectation for accuracy. I suppose this is true.

I know what book you're talking about. ;)

I'm annoyed as hell by inaccuracy in the fiction - inaccuracy that matters. What "matters" is the murky area - I mean, it's perfectly obvious to me when a change is an abuse. But I cannot for the life of me think up a definition, for that line not to cross.

I avoid a lot of HF because I can't expect a true portrayal of the society or genuine insights. That leaves me without much interest. - I'll go off and read science fiction instead, why not, if it's just about imagination? If I want a yarn, lots of options other than HF. In straight HF, I admit, I do want to believe what I'm told.

When HF is purposely crazy - and isn't HF - I've nothing against that. Artistic license, but you've got to have an artistic purpose. And don't fib about what you're doing.

See, people have such broad needs and wants from hf. An author could get it so right by some and so wrong by others depending on what the reader needs and wants.
At least in fantasy, sci fi, supernatural, an author can go off base as much as they want. With HF, it is much stickier.

Terri wrote: "See, people have such broad needs and wants from hf. An author could get it so right by some and so wrong by others depending on what the reader needs and wants.
At least in fantasy, sci fi, supern..."

With quite a few HF books, the author may as well be writing scifi. Trouble is, while most authors try to be realistic and accurate, it's not easy to make a good story out of all history. There have to be tweaks. I try always to have an author's note in which I can stick all the bits I couldn't use elsewhere, but it's not easy. And while editors try to stop authors being too accurate, and get all the dates to flocculate so that the story zips along faster. Forget accuracy, so long as it sells.

Which is why people really shouldn't consider HF as a lead in to history!

I'd like to highlight the word "Fiction", in Historical Fiction. I like my books entertaining, well written, telling a good tale, casting well designed, multilayered characters.
I prefer to find a minimum of accuracy regarding the "Historical" part, but my knowledge is definitely more limited than the most part of the people in this group, so maybe I've an higher tolerance for inaccuracies.
I read, and appreciated, some books by Michael. I found The Last Templara very good book, but I remember that he wrote that he received letters from disgruntled readers, even if he researches thoroughly while he's writing.
So...some people just can't be satisfied!

It's true. Some people just can't be satisfied.
Fiction to me is the modern version of a travelling storyteller. When people gather in the Great hall to hear the storyteller's best stories of the past, let's say Arthur and Camelot, a favourite of Eleanor D'Acquitaine mind, it was about weaving a tale, an elaborate tale to enthrall the audience and sweep them away to another time. It was about sheer enjoyment. Storytelling isn't about accuracy. I am sure many of their audience would whisper "is it really true? Was there a Camelot? Where was it?" But even then, whilst they were entertained by stories, the audience didn't know or care much what was true and what was not. If they wanted truth they went to their scholars. Their scholars being the accepted 'non fiction' story tellers.
So that is what HF is to me. Elaborate and entertaining stories with a base in truth. Character driven yarns. For absolute truth, I go to my scholars, non fiction...and yet, even in non fiction you will find untruths. As it is only the opinion of one scholar and it may differ to the opinion of the next.

Oh and Simona, I am like you. Even though I know a few things about history, some parts of history more than others, I barely concentrate on what is real and what is not when I am reading HF. I read HF for the historical setting and the characters. The accuracy is the last thing on my mind. :-)

I pretty much feel the same way as Terri. My knowledge of all the historical details throughout the ages is pretty limited (as far a ps details) but I love a good story filled with interesting characters.

Hey everyone,
Having power outage issues here at home so if I am on A&M and GR intermittently over the next couple days, that is why. I have no power and am having to use a generator to run things.

Terri wrote: "Hey everyone,
Having power outage issues here at home so if I am on A&M and GR intermittently over the next couple days, that is why. I have no power and am having to use a generator to run things."

Oh, good lord. I was without power for eight days in October on the heels of a storm. It was not fun. I hope your power comes back quickly.

...have you tried reading by candlelight?

Good luck with that Terri! Why the power outages?

Nevermind, I got my answer. :)

Tasha wrote: "Nevermind, I got my answer. :)"

Lol. ;)

Hi Diana,
I hope it comes back on quickly too. I have eta for that, a couple days. The board blew on the pole out the front of the house. We have to pay an electrician to fix it and unfortunately because it is the weekend, he won't get here for another day and a half.

Thank goodness for the generator. I may have to cart it into the bedroom tonight to run my bedside lamp because I don't like reading by candlelight. It gives me eye strain. Of course, I am joking about bringing the 'genny' into the bedroom to run the lamp. Would not be ideal having the thing taking up a corner, loud as all get out, and belching fumes. ;)

The biggest downside? I don't get to make the batch of Raisin and Oat cookies I had planned for today. :(

Since I often read during the night, I own a tiny lamp that I fix on the book, so that I don't disturb my husband's sleep. It would be good for power outages, also. ;)

Hi Simona,
I had one of those, but the batteries used to go flat quickly. I think I'll look into a different brand of reading lamp next time I am at the shops.
I remembered that we have a long enough extension power lead (20metres) which will allow me to run power to the bedroom to run a lamp tonight for reading. :-)

I had one that used AAA batteries which used to go flat very quickly.
However, last Christmas I got one out of a Christmas Cracker that uses an LED bulb. If you can live with the harsh white 'junk yard' light the batteries seem to last forever.
I think the one they sell for use with Kindle is similar.

James. I think I have that exact Christmas cracker lamp...I should go look for it. Don't think I have batteries for it though. It is night now. Lol. So I will have to grab a torch to go ferreting around in random dresser drawers. :-)

Terri wrote: "James. I think I have that exact Christmas cracker lamp...I should go look for it. Don't think I have batteries for it though. It is night now. Lol. So I will have to grab a torch to go ferreting a..."

I bought a sort of headset of elastic that went around my forehead and had a little LED lamp in the front. It came in handy during the outage this past October.

Just a caution with the LED lamps: don't direct them to your eyes oryou will see bright pink spots for an hour afterward.

This is the brand that i use and it works great and the batteries (aaa) last a long time.
I use this one for books but another one for my kindle.

http://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Bright-B...

Terri wrote: "Hi Simona,
I had one of those, but the batteries used to go flat quickly. I think I'll look into a different brand of reading lamp next time I am at the shops.
I remembered that we have a long enou..."

Or... you can switch to rechargeable AAA batteries. I got tired of tossing old batteries out and spending a lot of $$$ on it, then early this year I spotted the rechargeable batteries in the store, I thought I'll give it a try. Now they powered most of the gadgets in the house.

Simona wrote: "Since I often read during the night, I own a tiny lamp that I fix on the book, so that I don't disturb my husband's sleep. It would be good for power outages, also. ;)"

Hi Simona, I read in bed every day (could not sleep before reading and could not get off the bed before reading), apparently the light on my bedside and the sound of the paper shuffling was annoyed my significant other, so he got me a tablet. No more bright light problem, I just turn off the light and switch to night-mode reading option, and no more paper sound :)

Paper sound isn't a problem , since I usually read on my Kindle - except for library books...my Kindle 2 isn't retroilluminated, so I use a light.

I need to read before sleeping, too, long into the night. Sometime my husband opens an eye and asks "Still reading?" but during the years he learned it's no use complaining. ;)

Simona wrote: "Paper sound isn't a problem , since I usually read on my Kindle - except for library books...my Kindle 2 isn't retroilluminated, so I use a light.

I need to read before sleeping, too, long into th..."

He won't complains unless you wake him up in the middle of the night to discuss the chapter you just read. :)

nah, I tried, he just doesn't collaborate. ;)

Thanks for the book recommendation, Simona, and for asking about me...I was going to chime in on the night light discussion but didn't want you guys to laugh at me. When I have to cower in my safe room (guest bathroom without windows) during tornado warnings, I take my trusty WIND-UP flashlight/radio/siren thingy with me; at least, I know it'll work on demand or at least, upon cranking.

I shall look for that extremely popular doggie book - it'll get my head out of the sand (of Upper Egypt, that is).

Besides hunkering down to do some work, I have also been catching up on all the unread threads here - my, "somebody" really likes the Vikings. What an incredibly well-read bunch you are. I'll never catch up. It's such a pleasure to be a part of this - and - Dawn - I'll not overlook the Canadians again!

Inge H. wrote: "and - Dawn - I'll not overlook the Canadians again! ..."

We all appreciate it.... :D

I don't know about the everyone else but I get the feeling I'll never catch up too......always someone out there who seems to have read everything......

Dawn wrote: I don't know about the everyone else but I get the feeling I'll never catch up too......alway..."

Darn, got to run...maybe I spoke too soon or maybe it was blasphemy and Thor is coming down on us now. Just got that dreaded peep, peep, peep from the weather service. We desperately need rain, but the predicted 60-mph winds and hail are no fun at all...Later.

Hope you're safe....we'll talk to you later.

Be safe...

I don't care if I can't keep up. I feel like I'm having cappuccino and pastries in a nice patisserie, obviously I can't have ALL they expose, but I get to pick my favorite treats...

Hope you had no trouble from the storm, Inge.

Well peeps, I have power again. :-) I could not find that lamp that I got in a Christmas cracker (which i was reminded of when James mentioned his).

All back to normal tonight. Phew!

Glad you're back with power, Terri. Last year, after a week of being without power, cooking on a wood stove and sleeping in the living room (where the heat was) we had just put our pan of canned chili on the top of the stove to boil and added frankfurters when suddenly we had light and the furnace kicked on.

The deathless words that burst from my lips:

"What the heck???"

Hahaha. Like cavemen seeing an alien spaceship hey?

You know what's odd. That last night, with no power, I had the generator on driving my bedside light....and no candles. And yet tonight, with mains power on again and lights ablaze all over the house, I have a candle on beside me because it smells pretty....
(Orange blossom soy candle if anyone is interested..:-) ..)

I'm back. If Arnold can say it, so can I - after all, we were born in the same city (Graz, Austria).

Thanks for all your good thoughts. We had quite a windstorm and since I live in the middle of tall pines (with shallow root systems), I was "a bit" concerned. This morning, lots of debris - the golfcourse guys are busy picking up downed branches, and I can hear the neighbors with their blowers. Not as bad as the icestorm we had in '08 - that time, a huge pine did smash my deck but missed the house by three feet.

So I can imagine what Terri and Diana went through without electricity. But NO candles allowed at my house - ever since I set my cat's tail on fire!!! (I am still making it up to him).

Everybody: Keep Safe. And keep posting your thoughts; I love reading them.

Orange blossom candle would be nice. At the moment I have one claiming to be 'ocean breeze' it smells pleasant, but like no ocean I have ever encountered.

Inge -
I have cats and I burn the large 'jar' candles. But I put a lid on them, like the ones in this link:

http://www.yankeecandle.com/accessori...

(this was after my Bombay boy, Angel - not an accurate name - set his belly afire walking over a tealight)