Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

Diana wrote: "Inge -
I have cats and I burn the large 'jar' candles. (this was after my Bombay boy, Ang..."

Sorry, Diana, but I had to laugh (though it was more like a woeful grin - that I wasn't the only one to do the unspeakable)...I actually apologized publicly in the weekly "Paws Report" I used to write for our newspaper on shelter happenings - warning about "Dangers in the Home" to our pets...Luckily, people understood and remained generous during my annual membership drive.

That's a great site and I saved it on my Favorites.

Meantime, I am still catching up with the unread messages on here - Terri is an awfully busy gal to keep with all of this; my hat is off to her.

Deborah wrote: "Orange blossom candle would be nice. At the moment I have one claiming to be 'ocean breeze' it smells pleasant, but like no ocean I have ever encountered."

I always relate the words Ocean and breeze candle scents with toilet odour aerosols and the toilet cleaner things you hang in your toilet. Haha. :-)
They probably don't smell like them at all, but I can't get over the connection.
My aboslute favourite candles are the http://www.glasshousefragrances.com/
I am nuts for them. They are not cheap, but their scents are amazing and the jars are so nice, and good for many other things after the candle is finished.

Diana, they sell those Yankee Candles on the shopping channel over here.

Good to hear you made it through the storm unscathed, Inge!
And while the group does keep me busy, I wouldn't have it any other way, I enjoy you all. :-)

I sent out the polls invite for everyone to vote on what the July group reads should be.
If you didn't get your invite it is because I stuffed some of the invites up. whoops.

You can go to 'polls' in the group menu, or go here;
http://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/54...

Inge H. wrote: "I'm back. If Arnold can say it, so can I - after all, we were born in the same city (Graz, Austria).

Thanks for all your good thoughts. We had quite a windstorm and since I live in the middle of t..."

Inge, you did not choose the beat place to be free of terrible storms. I saw a map the other day which showed the incidence of tornados in the US for the last 50 years, and the western area is definitely the safest place. I was quite surprised to see that a belt area covering where I live in North Central Florida is the lease likely area for tornados-Thank you, God!!!!

I don't know how your brave tornado belt Americans live with this threat. The thought of living in an area that gets tornadoes terrifies me!

Inge H. wrote: "Diana wrote: "Inge -
I have cats and I burn the large 'jar' candles. (this was after my Bombay boy, Ang..."

Sorry, Diana, but I had to laugh (though it was more like a woeful grin - that I wasn't..."

I had to be grateful that dogs are my thing after reading your post, Inge. I put any candles where they are high up and they dogs can't reach them. If they could I am sure there would be a lot of singed noses as dachshunds(mine are miniature wirehaired variety) are VERY nosy. My Irish Wolfhound would not bother them as he is only interested in food.

Anne wrote: "My Irish Wolfhound would not bother them as he is only interested in food.
..."

lol

@Anne -

My labrador retriever wouldn't be interested in candles unless they smelled like bacon,.

I've always been tempted to get one of those candles.. http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/zo...

My Jack Russell wouldn't be interested in candles unless they smelled like rat, mouse or small lizards.

Anne, I have always wanted anIrish Wolfhound. A dog I almost adopted years ago appeared to have some IW in his mix. You are a lucky woman, although my favorite is still the German Shepherd.

I live on the East coast (Pennsylvania) and in the last couple of years we've had alerts on the tv for tornado warnings/watches. We had one hit near my mom last year (she lives 20 minutes away). I am NOT used to this threat and I HATE it. It is so scary when these break regular programming on tv to warn us. My kids get really scared and it takes a lot for me to remain calm for them because I'm freaking it on the inside.

Terrifying. Simply terrifying. Not something I could live with. :(
We live with the threat of cyclones here every year (aka Typhoon and hurricane), but they don't drop from nowhere. You get to watch them track for days.

Tasha wrote: "Anne, I have always wanted anIrish Wolfhound. A dog I almost adopted years ago appeared to have some IW in his mix. You are a lucky woman, although my favorite is still the German Shepherd."

I uploaded Aengus' pic for you in the Photo section.

Thanks Anne. What a gorgeous boy. :)

Hi, Anne! My dog is a wirehaired dachshund, too. After ten years with him, the other dogs seem all a bit disproportioned, with those long, long legs...

Italy isn't affected by tornadoes, but these days we got earthquakes. Not where I live, but in the "Inquisition" area there's a lot of people sleeping in tents or cars, waiting for their houses to be declared safe.

I think Simoma is referring to the Bologna area. Where our group read book is set.

That is a shame that people can't return to their homes due to quake damage. You sure are copping it over there, as is New Zealand over here in my part of the world. People are leaving the city of Christchurch in droves.

Books and Pets - what great friends we have on here!

Let's just hope Mother Nature will be kind to all of us because no matter what she dishes up, it can all be terrifying when it happens.

Anne wrote: "Inge H. wrote: "I'm back. If Arnold can say it, so can I - after all, we were born in the same city (Graz, Austria).

Thanks for all your good thoughts. We had quite a windstorm and since I live in..."

Hi Anne,
I live just 40 miles north of Saint Petes. I'm glad to hear your map shows low probabilities for Tornado's in the area.

I suppose everything is relative but 300 yards from us a guy had his house totally trashed by a tornado. We on the other hand lost part of our roof to a hurricane a few years ago. Thanks be for insurance.

I guess sub-tropical living is a two edged sword.Laying in the sun by the sea comes with a price.But at least us readers have something to do when the power goes off.

Yes, Chris, I'm sorry: my knowledge of the english language is scarce, and my explications are ofter poor. Feel free to correct me.

Simona wrote: "Yes, Chris, I'm sorry: my knowledge of the english language is scarce, and my explications are ofter poor. Feel free to correct me."

Simona -
I did not realize that you were from 'La Bella Italia' and not a native English speaker until fairly late. Your English - a horribly difficult language to learn! - is truly excellent and I, for one, would not dream of correcting you unless you wished me to do so.

To be honest, I haven't found much that would call for a correction.

Ciao!

Quirks that put me off
I'm participating in a group read. Maybe. On offer is a book that interests me - four sisters who all became queens. Their stories, the era they lived in - fascinating. But I pulled up the book itself and it's all written in present tense. You know:

* "Hubert de Burgh is a heck of a fighter," Achilles says. "And he's coming after us."
* "Yeah," says Patroclus, "But he cheats because his forces have stirrups, and they haven't been invented yet."
* Hektor looks at both of them and shrugs. "Well," he says, "we can always get the gods to intervene. Apollo likes me - I can get him to soften up de Burgh's troops and we can nail them."
* Achilles' jaw drops. "Just wait a minute, you Trojan b@st@rd!" he says through his teeth. "We're at war now!"
* Hektor eyes him. "You know, Achilles," he drawls, leaning on his spear, "It seems to me that your mother didn't hold you under the Styx long enough."

Do I want to suffer through that book? Hm... there's some good non-fiction on those women. And another book that came out at the same time.

Decisions, decisions...

Eventually, I will participate in a group read.

Diana wrote: "Simona wrote: "Yes, Chris, I'm sorry: my knowledge of the english language is scarce, and my explications are ofter poor. Feel free to correct me."

Simona -
I did not realize that you were from 'L..."

Thanks, Diana, you are too kind, but I'm aware of my faults, and I'd be happy if you'd correct them - I'd see it as an opportunitity to improve my knowledge, and a kindness from your part.
I just hope that my grammar won't be a nuisance for someone else. If that is the case, everybody, I wish you to let me know. I can always follow the threads without pestering my fellow readers.

(Diana, this dialogue seems to come directly from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy).

Simona, don't even think about not joining in. We love having the Italian view on things! And your grammar and english are almost perfect.......I think sometimes when everything is written we miss some of the nuances of the conversation. It happens to all of us.....

Simona wrote: "Yes, Chris, I'm sorry: my knowledge of the english language is scarce, and my explications are ofter poor. Feel free to correct me."

I wish I spoke another language as well as you speak English.

Thanks everybody..then I'll keep happily pestering.
But Dawn, you're way too soft for your motto! You should try something more like "Yes, behave you back there! I'll be checking your homework!" ;)

Simona wrote: "Thanks everybody..then I'll keep happily pestering.
But Dawn, you're way too soft for your motto! You should try something more like "Yes, behave you back there! I'll be checking your homework!" ;)"

I know the motto isn't quite me, but I like it. When I get tired of it (which I will) I'll ask for suggestions. :)

I often think that your English is so good, Simona, that you must have been at it a while.

Honestly. And i mean honestly, I have only picked up twice where you constructed a sentence a little wrong. And the only reason I remember that it only happened twice is because I am always marvelling at how well you integrate with us native english speakers. No-one would know it is your second language. I promise!

I didn't realize that until you mentioned it Simona!

See, Simona. :-) No-one would know.

Awww, this is like a Simona love fest. Look how popular you are. :) Now you can never leave.....

...and never shutup. :-) You must talk, talk, talk.

Besides, Simona, what you say is very useful (you and Terri had some excellent feedback for me when I posted bits of two scenes - very very useful! And imagine my surprise when I learned that your English was learned, not born.

Terri wrote: "...and never shutup. :-) You must talk, talk, talk."

lol

I'm glad our feedback was useful. I think it is great when an author can take feedback as a genuine intention to help build a better article. :-)

@Terri -
It succeeded and was invaluable. I thought things through, nodded pensively and made changes.

You get close to your characters and can't see the larger picture.

Be careful... I was mulling over posting some blips an requesting feedback. But that's cruel (and it's what friends, editors and beta readers are there for...)

Terri wrote: "...and never shutup. :-) You must talk, talk, talk."

Well, that's me, exactly...

Me too..:)

Goodreads is off and on today. Had to wait quite a while to get on because the site kept going 'down for maintenance'. And now I am finally on I can't stay. Speak more later peeps.

Question on 'Romance' features in HF

There is a group read on another board for a HF novel featuring a headless lady. Because of some writing isues (it's an issue of my taste) I decided not to participate, though the period sounded fascinating. I looked into another book about the same family at the same time, did a random sample, and came up against a detailed description of the Queen of England's wedding night. Uh, no.

That got me thinking. Here's a piece of my writing. Just a blip. It's among the miscellaneous scenes I'm gathering for something that, if written, will be at least three years in the future. But does this pass muster, do you think? Or should it be consigned to the 'Headless Ladies' genre? What do you think?

Note: I have given no info of era - I write in several - or identity of speakers. One character (the woman) has obtained her husband's promise not to leave the home/palace/fort/yurt that night. The scene goes from there.

"Now tell me why you asked it," he said.

She tells him. It is a plot to kill him. She thwarts it that night. And she kills the plot leader the next day. He is at a loss. He can't go out (he's promised).

"Now what?" he said.

She went to the door and dropped the bolt, then turned to smile at him. "For once," she said, "You are not coming back from a battle or going forth to a battle. You are fit and rested, you are not dripping with sweat or filthy with road dust. You've been bathed and oiled, you are decently dressed and, as I can see, in a good mood."

"Now what do-" he began.

"The children are in the care of their nursemaids and are safe tonight. They are neither climbing on our laps nor squalling nor demanding to be tucked in, kissed, told a story or bounced on their sire's knee."

"That's true," he said. "Silence is-"

"Completely unnecessary," she said. She took his hands and pulled him to his feet. "You do look splendid."

She interrupted him as he started to speak. "No," she said, "Everything is perfect. I haven't had my ears beaten by the squalls of two perfectly adorable children with strong lungs. Or wheedled by those children who want to climb into bed and snuggle with their mama and papa."

His smile broadened.

She stepped forward, laughing. "You're fighting fit and unhurt and rested, and tonight you're all mine."

Diana wrote: "
Question on 'Romance' features in HF

...She stepped forward, laughing.
"You're fighting fit and unhurt and rested, and tonight you're all mine."

To me, Diana, that last sentence says it all - I know what's should happen here (and I am sure so does the husband - unless he is a total klutz)...
The only thing I would change is the second "you're" into "you are all mine" -- I think it gives it more emphasis and rolls off the tongue easier. Just my opinion.

As an aside, a habitual non-fiction reader thought I used too much dialogue; so I wanted to see how, for instance, Clavell did in his Tai Pan...Just reading the first chapter, he has a lot of dialogue - however, within those 50 pages, he artfully inserts characterizations, likes and dislikes, history of his many characters so there is never any confusion as to who is who ... must remember this (I know, the teachers always emphasized "show me, don't tell me...). But we can't forget that the reader doesn't know these people as well as we do.

Inge H. wrote: "Diana wrote: "...The only thing I would change is the second "you're" into "you are all mine" -- I think it gives it more emphasis and rolls off the tongue easier. Just my opinion..."

You are absolutely right. I read it over and it flows better and, from what I know of the lady, is more like her.

There's a later scene, where her husband comes skidding into her apartments, white-faced and panting, followed by a friend/guard/whatever (having heard that the villain was after her) and she looks up from her spnning (they used drop spindles in that era), smiles and says 'The carrion is in the courtyard."

I have another busy day ahead. Have caught up with a couple threads, but won't have time to catch up with everything until later today (late this evening for those elsewhere on the planet).

See you all then if anyone is awake. :-)

Hi Diana,
That is a headless woman passage to me Diana. lol. But that is perfectly okay! Women readers would love that 'the kids are with the babysitter' scene. It doesn't mean anything bad that it is a woman's passage.

RE: The you're.
I have to admit. I do not like the use of apostrophes in books too much, especially in historical fiction.
I even know some university professors who will score a paper badly if it has any words joined with an apostrophe in it.
You're, they're, we're, that's. I don't like them either. I'll use them in casual writing. Posting messages in here, writing letters or notes to people as examples, but in any formal writing, I don't like to use it.
To me it should always be you are, they are, we are, that is, we will.

Hope that is okay to say. :)

Terri wrote: "Hope that is okay to say. :)..."

But of course! ;)

However, let's have a little debate (leaving aside the question of a HF book about Heloise and Abelard, because there would be a lot of such scenes. But perhaps only women would read them? Hm. Not sure. Sad story.

But I digress.

The dislike of contractions is a stylistic thing. For formal writing (and in my line of full time work I do some very formal writing) they may well be out of place because they can be taken as 'folksy' or 'talking down'. I have, however, a reservation regarding forbidding them in historical fiction.

People in history walked and talked and acted like people. To have them conversing in measured periods is not historical. General Cambronne, who was the commander of La Garde Imperiale at Waterloo is reported to have said "La Garde meurt et ne se rend pas!' when told to surrender.('The Garde dies but never surrenders!')

When congratulated on such a heroic utterance, Cambronne said "I never said that! I said SH*T!" Rather like General MacAuliffe at The Battle of the Bulge, who said 'Nuts!' when told to surrender by a German courier.

You'll find it in old texts - the hint of colloquialisms, slang and casual speech.

I, too, like my HF heroes and heroines to be majestic. The fact is that they often weren't, and I wonder if it is a sacrifice to authenticity to have them speak that way. You don't want them spouting slang
((The Sword of Shannara
(
has Allanon the Wizard speaking of the 'socio-political' profile of a land. Yes, it's fantasy, but it sits wrong.) but on the other hand, you don't want paper dolls, either.

Okay, lets do this. :) hehe

You're, we're, they're are not technically slang though.
If they are used as slang then the rest of the dialogue should follow suit to reflect a characters dialect.

When it is used in books, in this case HF, it is not generally used as lazy grammar. It is the author's personal preference. It is how the author likes to write 'they're' as opposed to 'they are'.

You may also find a cultural difference in my Queen's English and the American English. I am not sure. I know there are differences between our English that goes far beyond just differences in spelling.

I was taught not to use them in formal or creative writing as part of my schooling. That it is bad form and function.

I need to mention..sorry if I am not explaining myself properly. I have had a physically demanding couple of days here on the farm and I feel like a zombie. I am trying to engage my brain, but when I do it just makes me feel more zoned out.

Terri wrote: "I am confused with your bringing up of swearwords here. What has that got to do with using they're instead of they are?.."

Oops. Wrong thread. Swear and crude words were mentioned in another one. (besides, it's 1AM here and I've been driving all day - 720 miles)

That did sound as though I was sneering at your English teachers' credentials, which is not quite what I meant. Here, 'Creative Writing' instructors are generally 'authors' themselves. I was wondering if that was the same where you are.

For someone who said it was okay for me to say what I said before you sure aren't acting like it.