Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Hi Carmel, I think we were trying to outdo each other on fairness because I only ever compare the not vaccinated column with the second dose more than 14 days before the specimen date, so as to give the vaccine time to accrue its many ‘positive’ benefits. 😉

I like and respect all of your methodology but please don’t go down the motor car comparison route. Driving on the right side of the road, wearing a seatbelt, etc., etc. bears no resemblance to taking a vaccine. Driving a car is not a God-given right; it requires a licence dependent on following certain rules, all of which have undisputedly positive benefits to society and none of which have any downside to the driver. Bodily autonomy, on the other hand, is a God-given right and taking a vaccine, especially one that hasn’t yet completed its full clinical trials, should be an informed medical choice for the individual. What’s more, driving on the right side (or the left, if you live in the UK ;)) of the road prevents one from crashing into other road users who are also obeying the law. As the covid vaccines don’t prevent transmission, the number of other people who take them is irrelevant to the individual concerned. It's never been an issue with any previous vaccines and it shouldn't be one now.

I completely understand why are you dubious about some of the covid stories that came out of India last year. So am I, but for different reasons. Did you know that several of the main images shown by the Western mainstream media, supposedly to highlight the pandemic over there, were in fact taken from the aftermath of a gas explosion several years before covid? Fortunately, some astute Indian journalists blew the whistle on this Western media malpractice and the images were promptly removed from the websites concerned. Just goes to show that not all is at it seems in the wacky world of covid. I’ll dig the old reports of this out some time, if you like?

Very briefly, on a couple of things I missed from your last but one post (sorry, busy day at work yesterday), away from goodreads I don’t actually know anyone who has taken the AstraZeneca vaccine – it’s all been Pfizer or Moderna. I realise that there were many UK recipients but I’m not sure it was quite as many as you think. Besides, it was touted as providing 79% efficacy against symptomatic covid and 100% efficacy at preventing severe disease and hospitalisation. Just like all the other vaccines, in the real world it hasn’t overperformed, or even met expectations, it’s miserably failed to live up to the manufacturer’s initial boasts:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-cen....

I’ve got to say too that you’re stretching a point (to put it mildly) about Dr Hillary. His claim on television that 95% of those in ICU were unvaccinated made no reference to adjusting the figures to account for percentages vaccinated and was still 10% higher than your own calculation. He made a clear statement, with no caveats, and was almost 60% out. Along with the India example above, it was yet another attempt to distort the truth.

Despite our disagreements, Carmel, you now appear to hold the position of opposing both lockdowns and mandatory vaccinations. I don’t care whether we hold different views on statistics, the actual severity of covid or the benefit of the vaccines. I’m even happy for you to prove me wrong on any of these things. I don’t want to control anybody else’s beliefs and I’m flexible in my own. All I’ve ever wanted, which is non-negotiable, is to be left alone to get on with my life and for others to enjoy that right too. You clearly respect those wishes, so I no longer regard you as an opponent in this debate. I now regard you as an ally and friend 😊

Beau wrote: "Lance wrote: "Lance wrote: "I predict Carmel will be back. Write him off at your peril..."

Ummmm.... Was I right or was I right?"

I knew you'd be right, Lance. You usually are :)"

What can I say?

Beau wrote: "Lance wrote: "Lance wrote: "I predict Carmel will be back. Write him off at your peril..."

Ummmm.... Was I right or was I right?"

I knew you'd be right, Lance. You usually are :)"

LOL yup Lance was right also the pages of the dubious data Carmel accessed came with him :)

Why don't covid cultists open bank accounts?

Because they insist that everything stay in safe.

Beau wrote: "Why don't covid cultists open bank accounts?

Because they insist that everything stay in safe."

LOL and I thought hubs and I were bad!!!!!

Evening, Beth. It's been a busy week and me and the Mrs are putting our feet up. I know this is a v v sad reflection on me but while she has started watching a film, I have been thinking of covid cultist jokes. Oh dear, how did it come to this? Anyway...

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Covid corona.
Covid corona who?
No, sir, my surnames spelt F-l-u.

Breaking news!
Scientists discover cure for long covid...
Become self employed.

Oh dear, I'll see what the film is like.

I would buy a book of these.

Scott wrote: "I would buy a book of these."

Beau wrote: "Evening, Beth. It's been a busy week and me and the Mrs are putting our feet up. I know this is a v v sad reflection on me but while she has started watching a film, I have been thinking of covid c..."

LOL me too Scott, but better ask James about the film.....

Beau wrote: "Evening, Beth. It's been a busy week and me and the Mrs are putting our feet up. I know this is a v v sad reflection on me but while she has started watching a film, I have been thinking of covid c..."

Arrrggghhhh Beau you got me going on this too now but am going to bed and will TRY to sleep, good night to you and the Mrs.

Hi Beau:
Regarding your message 1405, I’ll try and find a better example than the driving of a motor car comparison in the future: I see your point.
I’ll take your word regarding the aftermath of a gas explosion in India: no need to find the old reports; I thought Western journalists were more honest than this. Disgusting!
You’re right; according to my calculations in message 1398, the vaccines seem to have failed miserably. The UK MORTALITY rate was only about 2.2 times higher for unvaccinated than vaccinated people: there should have been no vaccinated deaths at all. The UK INFECTION rate of 6.4 times more for unvaccinated than vaccinated people satisfied the ASTRAZENICA (79%=3.8 times effectiveness) claim; but if, as you say, most vaccines administered were PFIZER (95%=19 times effectiveness): https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canad..., or MODERNA (94.1%=15.9 times effectiveness): https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canad..., they failed miserably.
Now, I don’t know Dr. Hillary or anything about his character, so I’m not trying to defend him; I just made an observation. But I agree with you: if he intended to convey information along the lines I suggested, he should have made it clear on public television; even if his audience might have fail to understand the concept of normalization—not to mention the 10% difference.
Finally, I’m glad to have found a friend in you: discussing with you has enabled me to come to more than respect but also appreciate the opinions of this (our) group.
Regards, Carmel

Hi James:
Regarding your message 1403, I can’t understand why both the USA and the UK are fudging numbers, nowadays. I had so much faith in both of them! What’s going on?
Regards, Carmel.

Hi Beth:
Regarding your messages 1394 & 1407, for the record, the “false data” or “dubious data” you’re referring to was forwarded to me by Beau (with all due respect to him): I was trying to reply to certain observations he made based on that information. Regarding the numbers I produced from those reports, according to Beau (in message 1405), “we were [both] trying to undo each other on fairness,” and, “I like and respect all of your methodology.” In other words, I used information I was forwarded by the group, and I did not 'manipulate' any numbers to drive home my point of view. Finally, no, I don’t intend to write any book from the discussions of this group: the subject is not my strongest or longest suit. Do you play bridge, by any chance?
Regards, Carmel

Carmel wrote: "Hi Beau:
Regarding your message 1405, I’ll try and find a better example than the driving of a motor car comparison in the future: I see your point.
I’ll take your word regarding the aftermath of a..."

LOL Carmel and respect to you too for looking at this in a more open mind set than first off. I did not expect you to write a book about these discussions it was meant to be a facetious joke!

RE: Bridge, Yes I do play but haven't for quite a while now.

Beth and Carmel, I wouldn’t worry too much about whether my stats are reliable or not. They all either come from the UK Government or other ‘trusted’ mainstream sources so they’re probably BS :)

Incidentally, I don't know whether Beth or Anni think this, but I've seen a bit of a sea change in the UK MSM narrative this weekend. Here's a taster of what's been reported...

E.g. 1, shown on Sky News:

COVID-19: Sajid Javid directly challenged on mandatory coronavirus jabs by unvaccinated NHS doctor

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-s...

E.g. 2, featured across the whole UK MSM:

Ex UK Vaccine Taskforce Chief says population-based jabs should be scrapped

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...

E.g. 3, an appearance from Mike Yeadon on GB News (bite-sized chunks here):

https://twitter.com/calvinrobinson/st...

I've also noticed one or two major covid-cultist commentators back peddling on their past support for lockdowns and vaccine passports. Could England be the first nation to throw off its covid cultist shackles? Dare we dream?

Hey guys, they're starting to cover their arses now. They're running scared, aren't they?

Beau wrote: "Hey guys, they're starting to cover their arses now. They're running scared, aren't they?"

Beau wrote: "Beth and Carmel, I wouldn’t worry too much about whether my stats are reliable or not. They all either come from the UK Government or other ‘trusted’ mainstream sources so they’re probably BS :)

Yay Beau I think you're right, fingers crossed the turning point has or will come completely sooner rather than later.
Don't worry about your stats Beau you do what you have to! Just wish Carmel had more of a sense of humour and also would see through the B.S. stats. You have been trying your best to get through.

Attn. Carmel,

99.9987% of Under-20s Survive Covid, Study Finds – And 97.1% of the Elderly Do As Well

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.11...

(Analysis conducted by Professor John Ioannidis across 14 countries.)

Beau wrote:
“Incidentally, I don't know whether Beth or Anni think this, but I've seen a bit of a sea change in the UK MSM narrative this weekend”.

I agree with you Beau - the MSM are finally starting to question the COVID narrative - even on BBC Question Time!

Saw that, Anni - not actually on QT but a clip of it online.

I've got a theory for you. No evidence at all for it because I don't have any powerful connections, it's purely a long-held hunch...

I wonder if those people above governmental level, who are really the ones behind the 'response' to covid, have dirt on the world’s leaders and that they are blackmailing them to impose restrictions. What if the restrictions are actually against the politicians’ better judgement, but they are fearful that their secrets will be made public if they don’t themselves comply with this BS? Basically, the stricter the restrictions, the more dirt the cabal has on them, so the likes of Trudeau, Ardern and Morrison might have been very naughty boys and girls in the past.

Along these lines and re Boris, old footage of Government ministers and officials breaking restrictions was mysteriously released just before Parliament’s vote on vaccine passports. Did it sway some politicians? Now, with England’s Government resisting the restrictions being imposed elsewhere, we’ve suddenly got ‘party gate’ in the news.

Look, you know I'm no fan of Boris because I am totally opposed to anyone who has supported lockdowns and cold & flu passports, but I want him to stay for the time being because I’m convinced that his natural instincts are to end restrictions. If he goes and someone else takes charge, I fear we will go the way of Wales, Scotland, mainland Europe and Australasia. I believe that the cabal want Boris gone, and this is why I believe that it's in our country's best interests that he stays...for now :)

I remember liking Boris before all this. The kind of guy who didn't censor himself.

Beau wrote: "Saw that, Anni - not actually on QT but a clip of it online.

I've got a theory for you. No evidence at all for it because I don't have any powerful connections, it's purely a long-held hunch...

I..."
You make some good points here, Beau. I have also long held the suspicion that our corrupt puppet politicians are being bribed or blackmailed into complying with the Cabals globalist agenda.

Beau wrote: "Saw that, Anni - not actually on QT but a clip of it online.

I've got a theory for you. No evidence at all for it because I don't have any powerful connections, it's purely a long-held hunch...

Anni wrote: "Beau wrote: "Saw that, Anni - not actually on QT but a clip of it online.

I've got a theory for you. No evidence at all for it because I don't have any powerful connections, it's purely a long-hel..."

Totally agree with you both, time the Globalist Cabal and it's elites were seen the back of! They have hands in so many pies no GVT is ruled by the people anymore.
Would recommend the book I'm reading now it's an eye opener and not what it seems??

I might've posted this in another Covid thread recently. Regardless here 'tis again. It's worth reading as it supports the fact that the Covid pandemic is a plandemic. More importantly, it warns us of the coming of the collapse of the global financial system.

01/07/22

(Headline): International Finance Leaders Hold ‘War Game’ Exercise Simulating Global Financial Collapse. Should We Be Worried?

by (highly respected independent journalist/researcher Michael Nevradakis, Ph.D.

(Report): "High-level international banking officials and organizations gathered last month for a global “war game” exercise simulating the collapse of the global financial system. The tabletop exercise was reminiscent of “Event 201,” the pandemic simulation exercise that took place just before COVID-19 entered the global scene.

High-level international banking officials and organizations last month gathered in Israel for a global “war game” exercise simulating the collapse of the global financial system.

The tabletop exercise was reminiscent of “Event 201” — the pandemic simulation exercise that took place in October 2019, shortly before COVID-19 entered the global scene.

The “Collective Strength” initiative was held for 10 days, beginning Dec. 9, 2021, at the Israeli Finance Ministry in Jerusalem. It was relocated to Jerusalem from the Dubai World Expo over concerns about the Omicron variant.

Israel led a 10-country contingent that also included treasury officials from the U.S., Austria, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Thailand and the United Arab Emirates.

Representatives from supranational organizations, such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Bank and Bank of International Settlements (BIS), also participated.

Described as a simulated “war game,” the exercise sought to model the response to various hypothetical large-scale cyberattacks on the global financial system, including the leaking of sensitive financial data on the “Dark Web,” hacks targeting the global foreign exchange system, and subsequent bank runs and market chaos fueled by “fake news.”

However, the main theme of “Collective Strength” appears not so much the simulation of such cyberattacks but, as the name of the initiative implies, the strengthening of global cooperation in cybersecurity and the financial sector.

As reported by Reuters, participants in the simulation discussed multilateral responses to a hypothetical global financial crisis.

Proposed policy solutions included debt repayment grace periods, SWAP/REPO agreements, coordinated bank holidays and coordinated delinking from major currencies.

The idea of simulated delinking from major currencies raised some eyebrows because of its timing — on the same day participants gathered to launch “Collective Strength,” reports circulated that the Biden administration was considering removing Russia from the global electronic-payment-messaging system known as SWIFT, short for Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication.

This measure would be part of a package of economic sanctions the U.S. would levy against Russia should it attack Ukraine.

However, what may raise even more eyebrows is the list of participants in the “Collective Strength” simulation, which includes: the IMF and World Bank, and indirectly, the World Economic Forum (WEF)..........."

>>> This article continues at: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/de...

Source: The Defender / Children's Health Defense

Interesting post thanks Lance. Follow the money! Before the great depression, the financial elites were very adverse to the concept of increased govt spending which is funded by public debt. The reasoning being that it would cause inflation and therefore reduce the real value of existing wealth. In reality, handouts go to the needy who are by definition asset poor and eventually the money pumped into the system only fuels asset (read houses, shares etc) inflation. The rich get richer! As Mr Rotten pronounced: I get the feeling we have been had.

Nice one Tony, and Happy New Year. Got a feeling this will come to an end this year. 2022 feels a bit different, but let's see.

Cheers James, take care mate...

Tony, you might like this article I just came across by Jordan B. Peterson...

Jordan Peterson: Open the damn country back up, before Canadians wreck something we can’t fix https://nationalpost-com.cdn.ampproje...
The country is growing more authoritarian in response to fear

"The cure has become worse than the disease."

"I have spoken with senior advisors to provincial governments in Canada. There is no end game in sight. The idea that Canadian policy is or should be governed “by the science” is not only not true, it’s also not possible, as there is no simple pathway from the facts of science to the complexities of policy. We are deciding, by opinion poll, to live in fear, and to become increasingly authoritarian in response to that fear. That’s a danger, too, and it’s increasingly real. How long are we going to flail about, hiding behind our masks, afraid to send our children (who are in no danger more serious than risk of the flu) to school, charging university students full tuition for tenth-rate online “education,” pitting family member against family member over vaccine policy and, most seriously, compromising the great economic engine upon which our health also depends?"

Thanks James.

Three things are now very clear to me:

1. Our governments universally are a house of fools.

2. Our mainstream media is morally bankrupt while posing as compassionate guardians.

3. The cartel of ruling elites stand unopposed.

Orwell was right in so many ways!

Tony wrote: "Thanks James.

Three things are now very clear to me:

1. Our governments universally are a house of fools.

2. Our mainstream media is morally bankrupt while posing as compassionate guardians.

3...."

Yes and I would add that what people call the scientific process is not anymore what they think it is. Science has been subtly manipulated by big business and politicians (and perhaps other interests). Many people think they are pro-science, not realizing they are actually supporting a corrupted form of science.

Interesting post, Lance. Good points Tony and James.

I'm convinced that we will see economic Armageddon or some sort of epic reset in our lifetimes. The current system is on borrowed time. What matters now is what we choose to replace it. Saw a great speech by a German guy a few months ago about how the 'Digital Financial Complex' are aware of this threat to the current economic system and that is the reason the world has responded to covid in this bizarre way.

Tony wrote: "Interesting post thanks Lance. Follow the money! Before the great depression, the financial elites were very adverse to the concept of increased govt spending which is funded by public debt. The re..."

Yes Tony it always comes back to following the money trail...
Sad that.

James wrote: "Tony wrote: "Thanks James.

Three things are now very clear to me:

1. Our governments universally are a house of fools.

2. Our mainstream media is morally bankrupt while posing as compassionate g..."

James - Further to your comment "what people call the scientific process is not anymore what they think it is." -

I recently saw an old school scientist of retirement age being interviewed somewhere in the African bush and he was highly critical of the new generation of scientists who he claims don't accept anything new relating to science unless it has been peer-reviewed. I think he summarised the current situ very well...

He says the problem with this is if there's a new scientific development that clashes with findings that have been peer-reviewed these young scientists don't want to know about it.

He gave the example of the founders of candle-powered lighting, pointing out they would likely have scoffed at the very idea of electric lighting.

Interesting re peer reviewed.

Beau wrote: "Interesting post, Lance. Good points Tony and James.

I'm convinced that we will see economic Armageddon or some sort of epic reset in our lifetimes. The current system is on borrowed time. What ma..."

Totally agree Lance, the big reset??
Welcome Tony and good points too from all again.
Hate to say it but it wouldn't surprise me if some M.P's are involved and will get back handers, it's all going to come out, Boris was celebrating a little too much and now has his head in his hands a little too much!!
Saying he's sorry won't cut all this.

Just thought I'd add this but I think our main stream media is owned by the elite cabal, need to check this but I think they are linked in some way??

Of course, growing concern we are losing our freedoms. All about control. China is buying farmland in the U.S. already own the pork industry. Food supply, gas supply. May God Bless America.Janet Colbert

Beth wrote: "Beau wrote: "Interesting post, Lance. Good points Tony and James.

I'm convinced that we will see economic Armageddon or some sort of epic reset in our lifetimes. The current system is on borrowed ..."
I’m in total agreement with everyone here. I think it’s become clear by now that the MSM are in league with - or at least being funded by - the ‘elite’ globalist cabal. Always follow the money to get to the truth of the situation.
,

In this time of illusion and deceit I have come to a personal conclusion, they can do what they like but they can't take away the essential me not my body (that's just today's shell) but the real me that is part of all, that they can never have or control.

Beth wrote: "In this time of illusion and deceit I have come to a personal conclusion, they can do what they like but they can't take away the essential me not my body (that's just today's shell) but the real m..."

Profound and true, Beth. I also think it’s a matter of self-respect to make a stand against tyranny. I like the quote “ it takes nothing to join the crowd, it takes everything to stand alone.”

Heartening to read your posts, Beth and Anni, and know that we're in the same country.

Definite narrative change here but an even better one from the Danish press, where a leading newspaper has apologised to the public for misleading them over covid:

https://www.news.com.au/finance/busin...

From the article:

For nearly two years, both the press and the public had been “almost hypnotically preoccupied” with authorities’ daily coronavirus updates, obsessing over infections, hospitalisations and deaths, as the significance of the “smallest movements” was “laid out by experts, politicians and authorities, who have constantly warned us about the dormant corona monster under our beds”.

“The constant mental alertness has worn out tremendously on all of us,” the journalist wrote. “That is why we – the press – must also take stock of our own efforts. And we have failed.”

He said the press had not been “vigilant enough” in questioning authorities about whether people were hospitalised “with corona and not because of corona”.

“Because it makes a difference,” he wrote.

“A big difference. Precisely, the official hospitalisation numbers have been shown to be 27 per cent higher than the actual figure for how many there are in the hospital, simply because they have corona. We only know that now.”

He then goes on to point a finger at the authorities. Ha ha, they’re turning on each other!

Btw, those in the know are suggesting that vaccine passports are set to be dropped in England. Keep going and don’t get complacent, but I think we might finally be winning :)

Beau wrote: "Heartening to read your posts, Beth and Anni, and know that we're in the same country.

Definite narrative change here but an even better one from the Danish press, where a leading newspaper has ap..."
🙏🙏🙏👐🏻👐🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🤞🤞🤞🤞

Anni wrote: "Beau wrote: "Heartening to read your posts, Beth and Anni, and know that we're in the same country.

Definite narrative change here but an even better one from the Danish press, where a leading new..."

Beau wrote: "Heartening to read your posts, Beth and Anni, and know that we're in the same country.

Definite narrative change here but an even better one from the Danish press, where a leading newspaper has ap..."

At last someone who will be read by their nation is writing the truth, as my Mum used to say "the truth will out". Hopefully our media will be honest too asap. Good news that we are supposed to be going completely back to normal on Jan 26th 🤞.

Covid lockdown ‘prevented only 0.2pc of deaths in first wave’ https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trusting-pe...

p.s. Of course, we enlightened Undergrounders were saying exactly that about lockdowns in this group, in this thread, almost 2 years ago in March 2020... Not to mention the massive destruction (economically and healthwise including mental health and child welfare) that lockdowns would always cause.

Schools now mandating two masks for children:

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/202...

Ooops sorry Scott thought you lived in U.K.??
Don't think the senate or whatever have seen the recent science re masks or they're still looking to reduce their population to fit with the cabals aims?

Just another step in tightening the leash on humanity, a tiny little pickaxe chipping away at the block of people's freedom and liberty.

All Their actions have reactions, and those reactions that are a result of the action never spell good news for the people of the world.

I just hope that all of this can be turned around, but after witnessing the amount of people that drudge along with the covid narrative, after witnessing how many people are still stuck deep in their slumber, after witnessing how many people don't question things and stand up for what's right when they need to, it's not going to be an easy turnaround.

Nah I am in the U.S. and a particularly lefty portion of it as well.

Scott wrote: "Nah I am in the U.S. and a particularly lefty portion of it as well."

Ever thought of relocating to the U.K??? we need your support.

RWS wrote: "Just another step in tightening the leash on humanity, a tiny little pickaxe chipping away at the block of people's freedom and liberty.

All Their actions have reactions, and those reactions that..."

Know what you mean, tried to talk to a supposed "friend" of ours for many years (about the vax) and who lives in our village and he just keep saying he didn't believe what I or hubs were saying despite the evidence so am ashamed to say I lost it.......told him he was stupid for not even being prepared to research for himself, still said didn't want to know, so told him it was his funeral then he put the phone down on me/us, lol I really know how to make friends and influence people?????

Beth wrote: "Scott wrote: "Nah I am in the U.S. and a particularly lefty portion of it as well."

Ever thought of relocating to the U.K??? we need your support."

I have been an anglophile since I was a teen, but I fear it is no better over there right now. Although at least Boris is capable of speaking in complete sentences.

Hahaa yeah I can definitely relate to that Beth.

But these days I only bother with the people that are open-minded enough to actually take on board what I'm saying. For example, if someone comes up to me and asks why I'm not wearing a mask etc and they're just genuinely curious and not doing it to be a passive-aggressive muppet, then I'll try my best to enlighten them.

But it's honestly not worth trying with the people that have the "blinkers" on, they're so far behind in the mind to even begin to comprehend what's really going on that they're not worth wasting oxygen on, you know?

Funny you say that, Beth. I've been quiet lately because I've been busy packing boxes, ready to move. We're stopping in England but moving closer to family and friends before the powers that be decide the world needs a climate change lockdown lol. We're finally off next week.

It's been a pleasure belonging to this enlightened group over the last 2 years. Some of you called the crooked response to covid for what it was early, others opposed it for different, more mainstream reasons. One thing's for sure, though, the cultists were all converted or sent packing from Underground Knowledge. Hurray!

The great covid response con trick is all over in England now bar the shouting. On the plus side, we're more or less back to normal and slowly but surely the truth about what's really happened is being revealed to all who want to listen. On the downside, we're now beginning to see the bill for it all...and I don't just mean financial.

Anyway, I'm vanishing for a while now to concentrate on the move. Stay safe everyone (sorry, couldn't resist that) and speak to you again in the not too distant future.

Oh, Scott, if you do move to England, we'll have to meet up and I'll buy you a pint 👍

Thanks! I only drink root beer!