Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Beau wrote: "Ian, I have a problem with the scientific input into the coronavirus debate for the following reasons:

1. Scientists are split on the issues. Governments have chosen to listen to the views of cert..."

Well said, Beau !

Anni, you cannot deny viral activity merely by denying viruses are alive. Viruses are "cells" (defined by something within a cell wall) ut the only reproductive part is based on RNA. We can determine the nucleobase sequences. Whether we can see them s beside the point. We cannot see an electron either but all of physics works based on their existence.

Vaccines work. They have got rid of smallpox. Viruses cause disease; we know this and can isolate measles virus, show when it apparently mutaded away from rinderpest. It is unfortunate that you do not know hpow sicvence works, but there it is.

It's also unfortunate Ian that you keep telling us "you do not know how science works" when there are other scientists (including medical ones who are obviously more qualified than you to speak on these subjects) who DISAGREE with you on various points you are making ... That doesn't automatically make you wrong, but it should give you a reason to think and become more open minded... And again, never forget real science will always greatly encourage scientific contrarians in order to test itself and avoid the dogma you are exhibiting.

Debby wrote: "Lance Morcan, I think you have misunderstood me! I was quoting political secretaries' responses to enquiries, not telling anyone here to naff off!"

My mistake Debby.

Of course you have to have an open mind, but an open mind also means accepting that which is obviously true. To say there is no such thing as a virus is just plain silly. To say that a new vaccine may be dangerous is obviously true. The rules are simple: (1) use logic to analyse data, (b) form a set of as many statements you can think of that might be true, (c) accept all data and do not cherry-pick, (d) delete all statements falsified by observation, and then any one of all statements left in play MIGHT be true. Devise tests to reduce the numbers.

The mere fact that you can find someone on the web who says what you want to hear does not make it true. The web is not an unqualified source of truth and wisdom.

Ian and Krishna...let's try two birds with 1 stone here...

You're both inadvertently (I think) using a verrrry common tactic used by the corrupted/anti-scientific elements of the scientific establishment...Which is to take a very extreme example -- like "there is no virus" -- and then argue against that (which is a very black and white debate and very easy to argue against, I would imagine - and therefore a great debating technique to win scientific arguments). But in reality I never said there is no virus, never looked into theory myself, nor have I ever seen much posted about it or discussed about that far-out theory in this group...It's certainly a tiny percentage of all the contrarian science (real contrarian science, right or wrong still to be proven) that we have discussed here in this group re the virus.

So hopefully that clears that up. Need to focus on the grey areas, not arguing against extreme examples that are easy wins...Otherwise you fall into the trap of those who argue against level headed alternative thinkers by painting them all as Flat Earthers (again, an extreme example very easy to argue against).

As to your other points, for me it's quite simple with this virus research...Science ends at the point where politics begins. If you dig deep enough with an open mind, you will find exactly the same issues with vaccine research...Or should I say "research" as that's something I can assure you is extremely corrupted and political. And again, one can reduce things to a similarly black and white subjects with vaccines like "Either you are for vaccines or you are anti-vax" (similar to Ian's overly simplistic, one dimensional comment above "Vaccines work"). That's exactly why my vaccine book's subtitle was the complex "Are Childhood Immunizations as Safe as Claimed" was selected (actually the medical scientists and doctors I worked in a team with advised of that title, I must admit).

So I really do wish we lived in the sort of world Ian in particular implies exists: Where only scientists he agrees with hold logic and everyone else is just some nutcase on the internet...That would be a very easy world indeed and we could just sit back and trust everyone... In reality, the amount of anti-scientific approach exhibited by him in this thread (sorry Ian, this needs to be pointed out!) throughout the course of this year is astonishing...Absolutely certain (beliefs) about the nature of a virus before it's proven is NOT SCIENCE...Anti-Scientific, pseudoscientific, yes... Whereas to constantly question and test and play Devil's Advocate against promoted science (and very politicized science in the case of this virus), is 100% reflective of the scientific process.

Exactly why I set up this thread:

Doctors and Medical Scientists with contrarian opinions on the new Coronavirus (please only include links to statements made by doctors, scientists and medical professionals) https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Never forget, real science will ALWAYS greatly encourage contrarian scientists rather than mock them or otherwise disrespect them or else ban/censor them. That doesn't mean ultimately such contrarians will not be debunked, but anytime you see them being banned (e.g. millions of scientists globally who do not fit the consensus with climate change, vaccines or this virus and various other heated scientific subjects have been banned) you know for sure the modern scientific establishment has devolved into the anti-scientific process.

As for masks, I did wear one on two occasions earlier this year...For the Australian bushfire season in January! :)

Otherwise, I'd never wear one for this virus or any other with a 99.7% (approx) recovery rate anymore than I would for influenza (which in bad seasons has been estimated to have a 99.7% recovery rate, curiously enough...)

Besides there being no evidence this is anywhere near fatal enough to warrant mask wearing, compulsory or semi-compulsory vaccines or lockdowns or any of the other human rights violations we are facing...if Ian's original prediction, spoken with certainty earlier in this thread, of this virus killing 5% of everyone infected I would totally change my mind and that indeed would be an Armageddon level virus or close to -- but in reality it's proving to be just the opposite and a fairly benign or mild virus...and the original predictions of lethality from London's Imperial College and Johns Hopkins University (which lets not forget caused governments to lockdown in the first place with models that predicted hundreds of millions would be dead by now and started off all this hysteria) have been conclusively debunked long ago. They predicted around a 5% IFR...One of the biggest medical F*$&-ups in history!

Same applies for me with vaccines, I would never agree to this either especially as this vaccine likely to be extremely dangerous and we will be human guinea pigs (on purpose not by accident, I sense).

lastly with mask wearing, there is the psychological aspect where we are acquiescing to Big Government without questioning and this can psychologically turn us into even bigger Sheeples... And also, there are many contrarian scientists (including quite a few leading doctors in the US and EU) who are saying long-term mask wearing is very dangerous for your health...That is still to be proven, but seems like very basic common sense to me, given man was made to breathe freely... Right now all over the world, for example, there are people spending most of their waking hours, or say 10-12 hours a day in a mask not breathing freely (and potentially breathing in their own bacteria etc)...They work around 8 hours a day in a mask, then they travel 2 hours a day in public transport in a mask, then if they go shopping after work they wear a mask too... Like vaccines, you're a human guinea pig living like this!!

Krishna wrote: "So if government is telling us to wear masks and to avoid crowding, it may not be the perfect solution, but we should listen to it. Let the scientists resolve it over time but we should not take risks when there are human lives involved. This whole virus thing may not be something that bad but it will take time to conclusively figure that out. We cannot wait till then and risk lives of so many people...."

Krishna, I am 1000% on your wavelength about protecting lives - that's my entire motivation in fact. However, this argument you make above here can be flipped or reversed, if you think about it.

In other words, you're seeing this subject in in a myopic scientific fashion here as if only medicine exists...in that you mention "risking lives" as if the only lives at risk are those who may die of this (reasonably mild, not too lethal) virus. In reality, we need to consider lives at risk FROM THE MEASURES BEING INTRODUCED IN THE NAME OF THE VIRUS.

You get me?

Since lockdowns began...Psychiatrists across the world reported increases in depression, anxiety and various other mental illnesses, plus spikes in suicide rates... Police are reporting increases in domestic violence... Economists say we are heading for economic meltdown if we don't keep our economies open (research the levels of death, crime and misery during America's Great Depression and then consider what will happen in a country like India if capitalism and free markets are destroyed!!).

None of that is to mention our freedoms which are being erased at a tremendous rate for a (not too deadly) virus. again, that trade off would be worth it perhaps if this was some Armageddon level virus but it isn't (as Sweden proves which never locked down, along with various other Asian nations)

I would guess if we continue down this path 10,000 times more deaths will occur from the virus measures than the virus itself.

So yup, I am focused on human lives alright ;)

James, the reason I argued against "no virus" was Anni virtually stated she believed that.

As for what is science, my statements are not falsified by what you say. You must note that the first steps are to make observations and make statements. You try to work out which statements are true. That is difficult and in this stage there are strong arguments in the scientific community.

To give an example, think of masks. The statements are:
1. Masks block the transmission of the virus
2. If transmission is blocked, infection is blocked.

2 is obviously right. 1 is more difficult; maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, BUT there is no way wearing a mask will enhance the transmission of the virus, and Taiwan has had a lot of success with masks so empirically it seems right, so the mathematics of game theory strongly suggest, get people to wear masks. No guarantees there, but science does say that it is more likely to help than hinder.

I agree with those mask statements.

But before we get to that, like with all the other hundreds or thousands of laws, measures and recommendations being made by our governments, I would argue we first need to forget about the much reported "this virus is a MAJOR threat to humanity" narrative (as narratives are not science), and simply ask: Is this virus deadly enough to warrant these radical changes to society? What scientific studies show this being a super deadly virus that justifies giving up our freedoms, risking our economies and therefore risking millions of lives?

James, it is not a super deadly virus, but just because it is trivial compared with marburg does not mean we shouldn't take care.

As for the economic issues, my case is, let us examine this in a couple of years. The overall result is an integral over time, and the integral has to be until the virus runs its course.

No Krishna, lockdowns are coming back in a big way and may continue even for years unless we confront our own tyrannical governments. This is a far greater evil than you can possibly imagine...

Mandatory masks are now a part of our lives. There have been no plague deaths since August, so why masks all over now?

Krishna wrote: "I don't know about others... but if many scientists around the world (including my elder brothers and sisters who are in this profession) and almost all the governments are saying something.... I will listen to it!..."

Certainly, listen...only a fool wouldn't listen...likewise with the scientific minority who say the opposite...for the history of science proves that sometimes minority opinions eventually become the consensus (sometimes scientists are ahead of their time)...Which goes back to my earlier point: Real science will ALWAYS welcome with open arms scientists who hold contrarian viewpoints.

Furthermore, and even more importantly, one needs to be aware how what we naively call "science" can easily be politicized and corrupted for big profits, power, etc. I have seen this with my own eyes with vaccine research and medical scientists and doctors I worked closely with who have seen such warping of scientific data...And I believe it probably exists in climate chance science also - altho I haven't looked into climate change too deeply myself, I'm skeptical as it's highly politicized science and also contrarian scientists are being censored constantly, plus there is a multi-trillion dollar Big Green climate change economic industry forming behind it.

So I think that all goes back to my other earlier point made to Ian: we simply cannot understand 2020 and this virus in myopic fashion by just looking at the science. We certainly need scientists involved, but beyond them we need human rights experts, economists, psychiatrists, etc etc...We need corruption experts also, who can spot nefarious tactics...

Everyone needs to slow down here, take a deep breath and consider the bigger picture beyond the microscope...as a LOT of things are being installed here in the name of the virus...And very few have anything to do with medical science!

Sky News Australia
972K subscribers
One Nation leader Pauline Hanson says the World Economic Forum’s plan for a “Great Reset” is all about globalisation, losing our democracy and “pushing us towards the socialist-left Marxist view of the world”.

Ms Hanson put forward a motion to the senate on Wednesday calling on the Government to “boycott all World Economic Forum events in protest of their Great Reset agenda”.

“It’s about globalisation, they’re pushing their own agenda, and I think it’s pushing us toward the socialist left Marxist view of the world,” Ms Hanson said.

“They’re using this Forum now to push that when the pandemic is on, the government can use the people to push them toward their own agenda. I’m totally opposed to that.

“It’s about getting rid of capitalism, and so if you’ve got a company you shouldn’t have shareholders, you should be sharing the wealth around - that is total socialism.

“These elites have their own little world they live in, they don’t have anything to worry about. So these people want to control the rest of the populous and push their own agenda on the rest of the populous.

“We’ve seen it here in Australia.

“It’s losing our democracy, who we are, and it’s about slowly losing our sovereignty.

“I put this up on the floor of parliament, and the whole parliament voted against it bar Malcolm and I.

“They (other politicians) joke about Agenda 21, they have no idea the impact that is having on the world and our lifestyles, so I wish they’d start to understand and not think it’s a bloody joke.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSLoO...

More and more studies and psychiatric data analysis coming in now about the extreme mental health impacts of the virus measures, like this one below (of course those who have any understanding of human nature and look with their own eyes do not need silly scientific studies to prove the obvious: that this socially-distanced, locked-down, mask-wearing, fear-ridden culture will greatly damage the minds humans, especially children):


Collateral Damage? CDC Admits COVID Lockdowns Sparked Surge In Children's Mental Health Issues https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/col...

As Joe Biden's COVID advisory team begin to set the narrative for Americans to accept a very strict nationwide lockdown for up to six weeks "because the scientists say so," the CDC has unleashed some rather painful 'science' exposing the collateral damage that tyrannical lockdowns have caused among the youngest members of our society... who can't even vote to 'throw the bums out' who put them in this situation.

Disruptions to daily life during the pandemic lockdowns, anxiety about contracting COVID-19, and social isolation are all taking a toll on children's mental health, a report released Thursday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests.

The report, based on information from a subset of hospitals in 47 states, "provides timely surveillance data concerning children's mental health in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic."

As pandemic mitigation techniques were implemented to varying degrees of tyranny depending on the governor's political orientation, the average weekly numbers of children's emergency department visits for mental health-related reasons soared.

Compared with 2019, the proportion of mental health–related visits for children aged 5–11 and 12–17 years increased approximately 24%. and 31%, respectively.


Mental Health–Related Emergency Department Visits Among Children Aged <18 Years During the COVID-19 Pandemic — United States, January 1–October 17, 2020 https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/w...

Ian wrote: "James, it is not a super deadly virus..."

Thanks Ian...that only took about 8 months to come to an agreement!

Oh, really James. You wrote about lockdowns, "This is a far greater evil than you can possibly imagine... "

I wandered through Auschwitz before it became more open. I had an uncle incarcerated in Dachau. Your imagination is seriously lacking.

Ian wrote: "As for the economic issues, my case is, let us examine this in a couple of years...."

I think that's a super philosophy, Ian...Let's risk our free markets and potentially the destruction of capitalism and allow the potential of socialist Marxism suddenly being installed here...And I guess our Kiwi socialist government would love your message too...

And here we see exactly why scientists must only be a small percentage of any decision making think-tank... Myopia or being fixated on any single subject is a very dangerous thing... there is an entire world beyond the microscope and billions of people are suffering around the planet right now due to this ridiculous overreaction.

The degree of socialism in NZ now is exactly the same as before, except there were some wage subsidies to help people through the crisis. And no, I do not have a fixation. Of course the economics have to be evaluated, but to do that you have to integrate its effects over the time of the crisis. So far, NZ may come out of this rather well compared to many other countries because our economy, apart from the tourist sector and overseas student sector are actually doing much better than expected. But it will take some time to work out the total damage.

Ian wrote: "Oh, really James. You wrote about lockdowns, "This is a far greater evil than you can possibly imagine... "

I wandered through Auschwitz before it became more open. I had an uncle incarcerated in ..."

I said that to Krishna ;)
As she thought the lockdowns had all been ended and suggested we all just trust our governments and be good obedient citizens and do as they say.

But Ian, given that you have walked thru Auschwitz and have family ties to Dachau, perhaps you want to consider history more than just science?

This situation is really dangerous in terms of our long-term freedoms I can assure you. For example, way back in March or April I was speaking to an East German academic who not only had studied the history of Right Wing Nazism in his nation, but had endured the tail-end of the sinister Leftist Stasi regime...And he said that even if there is nothing pre-planned going on here, and it really is just a response to a virus, the history of governments getting additional powers over their citizens like this is a sad history of atrocities...History does not bode well in these situations at all, regardless of how uber-powerful governments and weakened citizenry occurs.

So think about your levels of trust. Extreme levels of trust and faith in government and authority is all I'm hearing from you (besides your scientific analysis). I don't believe careful study of history justify those levels of trust. I think we as citizens have a duty to express skepticism and especially to be critical and express concern anytime our freedoms are removed...

Ian wrote: "The degree of socialism in NZ now is exactly the same as before, except there were some wage subsidies to help people through the crisis. And no, I do not have a fixation. Of course the economics h..."

Not so sure there, Ian - the likes of the NZ under John Key, John Bolger, Shipley and even Helen Clarke seemed a lot less socialistic and less radical than this current govt...granted you live there and I live in OZ, so maybe you've seen something I haven't... But let's see what other Kiwis or NZ residents say in this group... Do you think NZ is drifting into a dangerous Radical Left zone and ushering in more and more socialism?

Ian wrote: "Oh, really James. You wrote about lockdowns, "This is a far greater evil than you can possibly imagine... "

I wandered through Auschwitz before it became more open. I had an uncle incarcerated in ..."

Ironically, Ian, you have acknowledged the existence of evil intent in the very same strategy of genocide now being used by the current eugenicists descended from the Nazis. Bill Gates has openly expressed his desire to ‘de-populate’ the world.

James Morcan & Ian J Miller, please men, Ardern's government is possibly the least socialist since the #fauxLabour Rogergnomics government of 1981-87! They absolutely are centre right not remotely socialist, and those who think globalism =socialism confuse me greatly! It's capitalism red in tooth and claw.

James Morcan & Ian J Miller, please men, Ardern's government is possibly the least socialist since the #fauxLabour Rogergnomics government of 1981-87! They absolutely are centre right not remotely socialist, and those who think globalism =socialism confuse me greatly! It's capitalism red in tooth and claw.

James Morcan & Ian J Miller, please men, Ardern's government is possibly the least socialist since the #fauxLabour Rogergnomics government of 1981-87! They absolutely are centre right not remotely socialist, and those who think globalism =socialism confuse me greatly! It's capitalism red in tooth and claw.

Gentlemen, sorry, no idea as to why it posted 3 times!

Debby wrote: "James Morcan & Ian J Miller, please men, Ardern's government is possibly the least socialist since the #fauxLabour Rogergnomics government of 1981-87! They absolutely are centre right not remotely ..."

Don't see them as being right wing at all. Ardern is promoting a brand of socialism in many ways with more and more legislation. Bigger and bigger government. Nanny Stateism is a very socialistic thing and NZ has got that in spades at present -- especially with its overprotective collectivist response to the virus.

Right wing governments like Trump's Republicans, traditionally value individuals freedoms whereas Socialist governments usually steamroll individual rights in favour of collectivist agendas.

I'm not a Left or Right person, I'm usually apolitical and probably would be more categorized as a centerist if I had to be pigeonholed, but in 2020 right wing politics with their protection of individual freedoms is what we need more of to cancel out the medical collectivism...

Debby, this little video explains very nicely the difference between the left and the right (and where socialism fits in) and where all the forms of government stand within the spectrum. It's about 7 min long and worth a watch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygEEL...

James wrote: "Debby wrote: "James Morcan & Ian J Miller, please men, Ardern's government is possibly the least socialist since the #fauxLabour Rogergnomics government of 1981-87! They absolutely are centre right..."

Agreed, James. Progressive Socialism is far more illiberal than Capitalism in regards to protecting the rights of the individual. It all too easily turns into Communist State dictatorship and tyranny.
P.S. That video you recommended to Debby is excellent.

Anni, I hope you're enjoying The Sheeple Show here in the Underground. I'm thinking of taking the show on the road, like an off off broadway or rep theatre type show :)

James wrote: "Anni, I hope you're enjoying The Sheeple Show here in the Underground. I'm thinking of taking the show on the road, like an off off broadway or rep theatre type show :)"

😉 It would have plenty of clown acts !

James, some great points. I particularly enjoyed the one about real science encouraging contrarian views.

Can you imagine another Galileo or Newton emerging in 2020 with modern scientists' obsession with peer review? They'd probably be called pseudo scientists and no platformed.

James wrote: "Sky News Australia
972K subscribers
One Nation leader Pauline Hanson says the World Economic Forum’s plan for a “Great Reset” is all about globalisation, losing our democracy and “pushing us toward..."

No doubt at all that this is the goal for a substantial number of lockdown adherents and mask fanatics. An appalling alliance between greedy global capitalists and their useful Marxist fools.

Beau wrote: "James, some great points. I particularly enjoyed the one about real science encouraging contrarian views.

Can you imagine another Galileo or Newton emerging in 2020 with modern scientists' obsessi..."

Beau put his finger on a genuine problem with current science. If your paper measures something it will get published, but if it contradicts the thinking of the peer reviewers it will not. Added to this there is not a strong incentive to challenge the current paradigm because funding is depended on peer reviewing.

The important point of this relating to SARS-CoV-2 is there is no paradigm shift involved. If you read the scientific literature you will find many places where the answer to "What does the virus do?" is that quantitatively as yet we have not measured it."

The discussion on freedoms is not scientific - it ranges from political to economic. The rise of a dictatorship cannot occur from just a virus. The example of the Stasi is poor. East Germany was conquered by Stalinist Russia, and prior to that it had been under Hitler. Hitler was accepted because he was voted in, and promptly put an end to the economic problems imposed by foreign governments, following remarkably closely the economics of J. M. Keynes. He eliminated oppressive unemployment in two years, while the rest of the world went down a rabbit hole of unqualified inequality. Dictatorship was forced on the East Germans, but it arose in Germany and Russia through inequality, not through the loss of rights. When you can't find enough to eat you don't care about civil rights

Ian wrote: "Beau wrote: "James, some great points. I particularly enjoyed the one about real science encouraging contrarian views.

Can you imagine another Galileo or Newton emerging in 2020 with modern scient..."

I cannot help but be reminded of the scientist's universal, mathematical "proof" of an "invisible" gene, most often referred to as the God gene, perhaps as a ploy for study dollars. Motivation irrelevant to all but the high risk end of investors, when CERN supposedly devised a way in which its collider could determine the physical existence, none was found. The eggheads were and mostly continue to be perplexed and contrite. So much for the ultimately theoretical existences of that which is merely anecdotally inferred, even when endorsed by supposed math.XIST

There are no existing photographs of any virus, including this alleged one. The virus' miniscule nature might seem to extract a reaction of photography not yet up to the level of the extreme level of theoretical, petty existence, if it were not for the lack of photography's continued inability to make any note of the virus' supposed penchant to rapidly replicate, thereby clustering en masse in a camera-capable congregation.

But again, this is not the point. It is a mere deference to your observable penchant to incorrectly encapsulate a sub or non-existence which at its best has the ability to inconvenience its needed host to the possible extent of putting an end to pre-existing morbid conditions, to date more of an issue for the Obama loved insurance industry.

Of more interest to me as well as this thread's seeming direction, the significant question is not the boring and disputed detail. inherent in what is being purported by "main stream science" which all too conveniently suits the backward interest of the loud and destructive BLM-antifa-Muslim fanboys, their ignorant flunkies, and their beholden, elected supporters of anarchy-assault-chaos-looting and intimidation, using this tertiary at best diversion as a subterfuge, it must be some sort of joke.

Allow me to simplify. If there was a chicken pox outbreak, given its low mortality rate for those otherwise reasonably healthy, would you find that a good reason to shut down the capitalist economies; that being an arguable reason to "sympathetically" move toward "kind-hearted," though demonstrably failed communism?

Anni, some basic physics - you cannot take a photograph of anything smaller than the wavelength of light. There are diffraction patterns obtained from the virus. No reasonable scientist will claim to prove something exists by mathematics. All you can prove with mathematics is a mathematical relationship.

I have no idea what you mean by a God gene, but the LHC cannot, and nobody ever claimed it could, do anything in genetics - it is a high energy particle collider. If you refer to the so-called "God particle", that name was bestowed on the Higgs particle by the press or the web. It has nothing to do with God, and the Higgs was found.

Science is not like the alleged Islam divorce. Just because someone says something three times does not make it so. There is so much misinformation out on the web it is simply annoying.

James Morcan, nevertheless Ardern's government is right, or we'd have a CGT, & people would not be homeless, unable to afford rents. The virus measures are simply what the Five Eyes and the Americans have ordered her to do. USA isn't remotely socialist. To me, right doesn't equal freedom, right wing governments (Pinochet, Franco etc) were anything but free!

Ian wrote: "Anni, some basic physics - you cannot take a photograph of anything smaller than the wavelength of light. There are diffraction patterns obtained from the virus. No reasonable scientist will claim ..."


Ian, some basic instruction – When the assigned essay topic is flowers, it is generally consistent with the receipt of a failing grade to write lengthy Wikipedia intended insertions entirely about fairies.

The “God “ gene (as in genesis) particle, so-named because they say it caused the Big Bang existed in theory and math until it prompted the construction of the Hadron Collider, and maybe CERN itself. It is more technically known as the Higgs particle, and is related to the Higgs boson and the Higgs field.
The particle was not directly observed so it seems that the Collider mathematically inferred its existence, which seems no particular improvement over what math alone inferred previously, and at huge expense.
BTW, this general process is referred to as quantum physics, which is totally dismissed as pseudo-science by traditional physicists, who only believe in what they can observe.

As for your statement above that “ the rise of a dictatorship cannot occur just by a virus” I repeat that you have already acknowledged the existence of evil intent in the very same strategy of genocide now being used by the current eugenicists descended from the Nazis. Bill Gates has openly expressed his desire to ‘de-populate’ the world.

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Beau wrote: "Can you imagine another Galileo or Newton emerging in 2020 with modern scientists' obsession with peer review? They'd probably be called pseudo scientists and no platformed...."

Absolutely, but not only that they would immediately spot the corruption and obvious anti-scientific bias within much of the so-called scientific research these days.

Ian wrote: "The discussion on freedoms is not scientific - it ranges from political to economic. The rise of a dictatorship cannot occur from just a virus. The example of the Stasi is poor. East Germany was conquered by Stalinist Russia, and prior to that it had been under Hitler. Hitler was accepted because he was voted in, and promptly put an end to the economic problems imposed by foreign governments, following remarkably closely the economics of J. M. Keynes. He eliminated oppressive unemployment in two years, while the rest of the world went down a rabbit hole of unqualified inequality. Dictatorship was forced on the East Germans, but it arose in Germany and Russia through inequality, not through the loss of rights. When you can't find enough to eat you don't care about civil rights..."

Oh, the naivety...

1. This thread is called "Are the lockdowns and quarantines about something more than just the virus?" and yet you are trying to make it only about science. Goes back to my earlier points about you being a stereotypical scientists in that your views are myopic and your whole approach (e.g. denying any negative consequences to the lockdowns or any political risks since march, when you'd clearly already made up your mind) comes across like a guy looking down a microscope who doesn't wanna be distracted by anything else. Again, in this situ we need scientists in any decision making think tanks Ian, albeit medical scientists of course, but it'd be extremely dangerous for scientists to have too much say...

2. "The rise of a dictatorship cannot occur from just a virus." Oh boy, where to begin here!!!! The levels of trust and faith in authority are simply astonishing. The history of dictatorships and evil regimes and anti-human governments show they can begin with literally any scenario where administrations can become enormously powerful. And again, it's not scientific like you keep wanting to reduce this thread to, but a careful understanding of human nature especially the dark side of humanity. So where you say a dictatorship cannot occur from a virus, that's a guy looking down a microscope fascinated by science... A more versatile generalist will simply say: Depends how governments react to that virus and what laws are implemented in the name of that virus and whether an evil opportunism comes into play.

3. Re the Stasi, I wasn't directly comparing 2020 to the Stasi period of history. I only mentioned that an East German academic I was speaking to about this back in March or April, who I just happened to mention as a reference point had endured the tail-end of the sinister Leftist Stasi regime, but as a historian had studied many periods of history across the planet and especially ones that lead to genocides... I still think his point was right that history does not bode well in these situations when extremely powerful political ruling classes emerge and citizens' rights are diminished.

Debby wrote: "James Morcan, nevertheless Ardern's government is right, or we'd have a CGT, & people would not be homeless, unable to afford rents. The virus measures are simply what the Five Eyes and the America..."

Debby, not sure how long you have been in NZ, but are you aware Labour is NZ's main Left wing party and National is our Right wing party? Granted under Rogernomics in the 1980s it may have been temporarily flirting with Right wing policies, but Labour in NZ is an offshoot of the British (Left wing) Labour party and a cousin of the Australian Lefist Labour Party.

And Left wing nations still have a lot of homeless and can easily have rent crises...Depends on how things are managed...Sometimes such things can be worse and even much worst under Leftist administrations...

Ardern is one of the most Leftist, if not the most, we have ever had. Definitely not Right wing. Their nanny state approach to handling the virus is very leftist also. Socialism incoming, I'd argue...But Socialism with a smile with her whole "be kind, Kiwis"...Dangerous and very aligned with the likes of the WHO and UN...This young, inexperienced, back-bencher looking woman, who can barely handle press conferences and reads scripted speeches most of the time, will be a disaster if there is a major virus outbreak in NZ (even if just cases not that many deaths) as she's shown she'll keep the country locked down for months at a time...Maybe longer...

Genuine Right wing leaders would value individual freedoms in this instance, plus would be very worried about keeping economies open and protecting the free markets and capitalism (e.g. Trump's administration).

That's why again we need wayyyyyy more contribution to this extremely volatile situation than just medical scientists...we need economists, human rights, historians, constitutional lawyers, and philosophers I would argue. We got a situation where the collective is being given top priority and individuals are getting steamrolled...for a virus with about a 99.7% recovery rate!

Damning Evidence By Numbers

To put this in perspective, according to UK government data, 259,906 people died from the turn of the year till 08/05/2020 [18 weeks].

During the 12 weeks preceding the lock-down, there were 138,916 deaths, which means that an average of 11,576 people died each week – around 1,500 more than the five year average for the same period.

This clearly indicates that the fear and hysteria whipped up by the government and the mainstream media prior to the lock-down initially increased the mortality rate by around 16%.

However, it also means that 120,990 people died between 23/03/2020 and 08/05/2020, at an average weekly mortality rate of 20,165.

Mortality Rate Doubled During Lock-Down

This shows that an average of around 8,500 more people per week have died in Britain during the lock-down, than died each week of 2020 preceding it.

Representing around a 100% increase in the UK death rate, when compared with the corresponding periods over the past five years.

Is this why Johnson’s government is showing no signs of lifting the lockdown ?
In spite of the government’s repeated and dishonest claim that the lock-down has been keeping people safe from harm.
Regardless of the answer, upon the statistical evidence alone, the allegations of pandemic fraud are unequivocally sustained by the doubling of the average weekly mortality rate during the lock-down.

Population Reduction

If it can be determined that only 5,951 people have died with nothing but CV-like symptoms since the beginning of 2020, that means that 253,955 people have perished from other underlying causes.

Which translates into a mean average weekly mortality rate of 14,109 deaths from all causes this year – around 41% more than the weekly average during the same period over the last five years.

Is this what population reduction, sustainable development and hitting zero carbon dioxide emissions by 2050 looks like?

At that rate of a little over 1,000,000 deaths per year, it would take about 57 years to reduce the population by 85%, which many eugenicists have openly called for, in the name of ‘saving the Earth from CO2’.

But if everybody is forced into a typical Bill Gates vaccination program and the effects of the 5G non-ionising radiation grid causes the premature deaths that thousands of scientists worldwide can prove that it most certainly will; it would be more than feasible to reach zero carbon dioxide emissions by 2050 or sooner, as is the declared intention of this Parliament.

James wrote: "Debby wrote: "James Morcan, nevertheless Ardern's government is right, or we'd have a CGT, & people would not be homeless, unable to afford rents. The virus measures are simply what the Five Eyes a..."

James, I am old enough to be your mum and if I had been, I would be very proud of you!
My own two sons - who both have PHD’s in science (the eldest is actually a Fellow of the Institute of Physics) - sadly did not get a good grounding in history at school. As a consequence they have a narrow-focus view of the real world, outside their own specialisms. P.S. obviously this does not negate my pride in their achievements, but I recognise the limitations of their world view.

Anni, just goes to show how wrong we can be. I actually thought you were a 30-something post-graduate student (I guessed in something scientific or philosophy) and didn't imagine for a minute that you were old enough to be James's mum. Ha ha, you sound young at heart!

Ian, I can tell you're a history man as well as a scientist, but I think you're missing a big point comparing inter-war Europe with the situation now...

You're certainly right that 20th C extremism in Europe was caused by exceptional levels of poverty (same with French Revolution). (Btw, also important to note that revolutions, and the extremist doctrines that follow them, normally occur when the middle classes have been plunged into poverty too because those accustomed to it often accept their lot and don't have the experience to get organised.)

But consider this...the economic response to coronavirus is likely to impoverish huge numbers of people, including the middle classes (small businessmen, etc). What's more, scientists and many others currently seem a bit blase about freedom, as it's something that can't be quantified.

Therefore, it's clear that the seeds of extremism are currently being sown by our response to coronavirus, with our complete disregard for the economy.

Europe's past extreme regimes were bad enough but consider one backed up by the power of the internet, widespread CCTV, etc. That is truly frightening.

Hey, cheers Beau!

I should have kept quiet about my longevity. but I hope you ‘young things’ won’t hold it against me!
( I’m claiming to be a child bride from now on)

If James is as young as he looks on his photo, I'm old enough to his parent too lol.

His arguments, however, suggest he's an older and wiser man.

Anni, you changed the topic. Just to clarify, the Higgs boson was "observed"; not directly, but as an energy fluctuation. To assert that "traditional physicists" whatever they are , do not believe in quantum physics is an assertion that is sheer nonsense.

Of course this thread is about more than science, but that does not mean that scientific facts can be either ignored, or even worse, changed just to suit your prejudice. Yes, the economic issues have yet to be resolved because we don't have the data. As for the argument on personal freedom, who is arguing that your freedom to do what you like overrides others' freedom to live their lives free of adverse consequences of you?

Ian wrote: "Of course this thread is about more than science, but that does not mean that scientific facts can be either ignored, or even worse, changed just to suit your prejudice. ..."

That's true and you do not represent scientific truth just because you say you do, Ian.

Anni wrote: "James wrote: "Debby wrote: "James Morcan, nevertheless Ardern's government is right, or we'd have a CGT, & people would not be homeless, unable to afford rents. The virus measures are simply what t..."

"James, I am old enough to be your mum and if I had been, I would be very proud of you!"

Anni, I am old enough to be James' dad...In fact I am his dad and I share your opinion of him!